HomeMy WebLinkAbout2009-03-05-9:00AM-WORKSHOP SESSION
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S12AZ05 COUNTY i
BRYAN, TEXAS
NOTICE OF MEETING AND AGENDA
BRAZOS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
WORKSHOP SESSION
THE COMMISSIONERS COURT OF BRAZOS COUNTY WILL MEET IN A
WORKSHOP SESSION ON THURSDAY 5 MARCH 2009 AT 9:00 A_M_ IN THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATION BUILDING, 200 SOUTH TEXAS AVENUE, SUITE 106,
BRYAN, TEXAS_
1 . Call to Order
2_ Discussion regarding the development of rules 8c regulations for culverts and driveways
on County roads_
3. Adjourn
The County Administration Building is handicap accessible. Handicap parking spaces are available. Any request For sign
interpretive services must be made two working days before the meeting. To make arrangements, please call (979) 361-4102. Ofce of the County Judge - 200 South Texas Ave. Suite 3132 ~ Bryan, Texas 77803 ~ Fax: (979) 361-4503
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COMMISSIONERS' COURT
WORKSHOP SESSION
March 5, 2009
The Commissioners' Court of Brazos County, Texas met
in a Workshop Session on Tuesday the 3rd of March, 2009 at
10:00 a.m., in the County Administration Building,200 South
Texas Avenue, Bryan, Texas, 77803, with the following
members of the Court present:
Randy Sims, County Judge, Presiding;
Lloyd Wassermann, Commissioner of Precinct 1;
Duane Peters, Commissioner of Precinct 2;
Kenny Mallard, Commissioner of Precinct 3;
Carey Cauley,Jr. Commissioner of Precinct 4;
Karen McQueen, County Clerk.
Attached is a list of the citizens and officials in
attendance.
Attached is a transcript of the meeting.
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BRAZOS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Development of Rules and Regulations for Culverts and
Driveways on County roads.
March 5, 2009
Sims: Let's get started. I will call this workshop session into session, Thursday,
5th March 2009 at 9:00 a.m. in the County Administration Building, 200
South Texas Avenue, Suite 106, City of Bryan. I will call this meeting to
order. The item on the agenda is discussion regarding the development of
rules and regulations for culverts and driveways on County roads.
Commissioners, anybody want to make an opening statement if you will?
Ok, let's talk about what we're goin do with the culverts and driveways
then on County roads. I know that there are some developers and some
builders here, and I appreciate yall coming, because it helps us to get feed
back from you guys because you all are involve in it on a day to day
basis, and I think it will certainly help us decide how we're going to
handle some of these things. We've got several items, not on this agenda
but we're going have to talk about mail boxes here before too long. But
anyway lets talk about the rules and regulations for culverts and
driveways on County roads. Duane you want to lead off?
Peters: Yall probably know kinda how this problem got started; we've got a lot
of subdivisions out there that even though we've had in our regulations
that there wouldn't be any concrete over culverts, it's continued to
happen, and now we've got some subdivisions that are up, coming up to
their 2 year maintenance time and we haven't accepted them yet,
probably mainly because of the...at least one of the reasons is because of
concrete over culverts. So, what I think this was called for was to kinda
sit down and talk about, what are we going to try to do about it. I know
we've done this before, we sat down I think probably a year ago and we
still haven't gotten anything solved. But we wanted to talk some about
what'll we do about those subdivisions that haven't been accepted yet.
The ones we've already accepted and whether we can do and then what
are we going do again from now to the future to try to keep that from just
continuing to occur. When we looked at what the possibilities are, I can
tell you what my thinking was, that we might could, or what I had hoped
we could do was...the concrete causes us a problem when we have to
replace culverts in the future. And it's an expense that we try to keep
from having cause that's why we put it in regulations so we wouldn't
have to saw cut concrete and have it removed. It's an added expense to
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the County to have to deal with concrete driveways. And what I had
hoped maybe we could do was to charge a fee in the future for removal of
that concrete, to each land owner when we had to revamp those culverts
and driveways. I think, so far at least from our Civil Attorney, she has
not been able to find that there's ...that the legislature has given us the
authority to charge a fee for that. So, I'm not sure that that's an option.
It really doesn't look like it is. When that got cut off yesterday, I'm kinda
at a lost about what we do about, you know, how we going deal with
it... concrete driveways, so I think but we need to discuss it here with the
Commissioners and see if there's any other input... somebody might have
some suggestions that we might could do. It's a possibility that it's
probably too late now to go to the legislature and ask for any changes, ask
the legislature to change, and give us that authority for this session, but
maybe in the next 2 year period we can talk with them and see if we can,
if they'll give us authority. I think the cities have the authority to charge
fees for doing those sorts of things. But, right now it doesn't look like
we've got the authority to be able to do that. So... I guess that's just...
Sims: That's a good opening statement.
Mallard: I think also the concrete running out to the road service obvious, we hope
it's not a short time, but at some point in time the road has to be
completely rebuilt. And, because the driveways extended out to the
asphalt surface it's obviously it's gone several feet over the sub base
material that's going out toward the ditches. So at that time for sure, then
all the driveways if they're concrete would have to be cut back from the
road area so that the equipment can get in and rebuild the base material.
So that's another issue we have... so there is two times The new culverts I
think they're lasting I think especially if we go to the...what is it Gary, the
ABS?
Arnold: The plastic pipe yeah.
Mallard: The plastic pipe instead of the galvanized we wouldn't have the rotting
out as fast, so they may last a long, long time. So it's not like we want to
come in there and tell everybody in the County you're going have to tear
up your driveway, but we need to find some way to fix the problem, so
that the County doesn't get overburdened when we have to look at it.
We're trying to figure out how to deal with this and we would also like,
you know, support of the developers and builders so that we could kinda
get compliance. To create ordinances and burden everybody more is not
really what we want to do, but we don't know what choice we have.
That's way we're trying to come together and try to get some information
from you guys as well on what yall see would help us solve this problem.
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Peter: And I guess I had wondered, as far as from now forward, if the
possibility ...I think we've talked about putting those restrictions on plats.
You know having that printing on the plat. We actually on the driveway
culvert applications, in 2005, it's been in our regulation since 2000, but in
2005 because the problem continued to happen we had it put in bold, on
the application that there won't be any concrete put over driveways and
even then it's continued to happen. But I wondered about, if something
could be put in deed restrictions in the subdivisions when they come in
for platting, if that's ...I just I don't know how we get a handle on the
thing, we've done what we hoped would solve the problem and it just
continues to happen. Without the authority right now to charge fees for
it, I think if the legislature gave us the authority to charge fees for it, well,
then maybe we just deal with it that way. When the problem comes up
and those have to be replaced, that land owner has to pay extra because
he's got concrete on there, so I think we could deal with it that way. We
just can't do it right now. Yes Sir?
Schehin: Why don't we (inaudible).
Sims: Mr. Schehin, would you come up and speak into our microphone here or
take that one back, either way, and give us your name, please, so we'll be
able to get the record straight.
Schehin: M.L. Schehin. Saddlecreek Subdivision, we're in Bryan now and we have
been (inaudible), of course we don't anything that's in compliance ...we
have a problem too with the headwalls. I think, that we just, I know
nobody likes it but to me the only way you're going get the attention of
builders is you just put it like on the green tag that you give, and you have
to pay a fee for your driveway. Charge them. And so you can expect it,
and tell them it's not going to pass, if it's not done right. And that way
you'll collect money for what you do have to fix. And if we use plastic
pipe well maybe we'll coat it (inaudible) away from it. But, it's tough for
us to get a builder to do that.
Peters: We have found...
Schehin: If we get in his pocket, he can't, maybe a certificate of occupancy or
something, and then if the legislature lets you do differently later, well
that's fine.
Peters: And that may be a possibility, I'm not sure. We'd have to have legal staff
check and see if we have the authority to charge a fee for that. That's
where we run into...
Schehin: I'd just do it Judge.
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Peters: We can't.....
Schehin: Well, "Hey, we talked to them, we talked to them. It doesn't do any
good."
Peters: Yes sir, I understand.
Sims: I know Mr. Schehin is an advocate of impact fees. We talked about, we
talked about that out at Briarcrest, you remember?
Schehin: Well, if it cost money, it cost money.
Sims: And I appreciate you bringing that up the day we had that meeting out at
Briarcrest.
Schehin: If our folks can't afford two or three hundred dollars for something, then
they shouldn't even probably be there.
Peters: Yes sir and I agree with you if we have the authority to do it. But the way
it is in County government, if the legislature doesn't give the County
authority to do something, we pretty much can't do it. That's just the
way it is. Cities are kinda different, if they don't tell...
Sims: They're home rule cities.
Peters: if they don't tell them that they can't do it, they've got a lot of options
that they can do, but counties are different. Even if we went out and said,
ok, we're going charge you a fee, the first one that found out that we
couldn't do it would take us to court and stops us, and we wouldn't be
able to do it then. If we're not allowed to do it by the legislature, we
probably won't be able to.
Schehin: Well even for now you couldn't (Inaudible)
Peters: Well without having legal check it to be sure whether they gave us that
authority to do it, I couldn't tell you whether we can or not. But if they
don't give us that authority, we probably won't be able to do that. We
did find, our legal staff found that it's actually a class B misdemeanor
to...I didn't bring the law with me, Kay, did you bring that with you?
Magnuss: Yes, I did.
Peters: I don't remember how it was worded but, you might...
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Magnuss: If the sub divider or homeowner violates the subdivision regulation
imposed by the County, then they could be charged with a class B
misdemeanor.
Peters: So there is some teeth there, we didn't realize it, we're not looking to go
out and file on homeowners and builders with criminal...
Schehin: They all want concreted driveways, but somebody's go to pay for it.
Peters: Yes Sir, I agree. It shouldn't be the County because, it shouldn't be all tax
payers in the county having to foot the bill for those homeowners that
want concrete out there, when the time comes to have to replace it. I
think we're on the same page, we understand that.
Schehin: Could they sign something, giving you a...releasing you from ever any...
Peters: We've discussed...
Mallard: We can't release us of liability.
Peters: I don't think that could happen.
Schehin: I think you need to be paid so you're never out any money.
Peters: Yes sir, yes sir.
Schehin: Thank you.
Sims: Thank you, Mr. Schehin.
Peters: Yes sir, thank you.
Sims: Yes sir, name please.
Martinek: Travis Martinek, I represent Indian Lake Subdivision. We've done quite
a bit of research on this and how it's impacting us quite a bit...we have
quite a bit of roads and quite a bit of roads to build in the future so we
kind of want to get to a resolution. One of the things ...right now we're
trying to get several miles of road accepted that are concrete so we been
communicating quite a bit with our homeowners and as a developer we're
indifferent as to concrete or asphalt, honestly. We're taking more of a
position of what would our homeowners prefer and every one of them
unanimously prefers that I've spoken to...the concrete because of the
esthetics of it. They're all willing ...they understand your concerns and all
that ...they're all willing to be responsible for that concrete. Every single
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one I've talked to, if you ever need to come in there and tear something
up, they would fund the cost of paying for it. Every one of them
unanimously. And let's just get past ...that's the civil thing for them to do
and they'll be willing to do it, they understand the situation. We dealt
with the fees and fines and things like that with HOA and I understand/
I'm not clear on the laws but there are issues about calling something a
fee and fine I'm sure of it privately. I don't know the real difference, but
it seems like yall are having the same problem. If you could set it up in a
way that, make them just responsible for the replacement of it and not
charge a fee, just make them responsible for it. It's semantics in a lot of
respect and you might be able to get around with that. It may be an easy
solution. One of the things ...we've researched quite a few other county
ordinances, one of them we submitted to you was basically verbatim, the
Fort Bend County rule, and they require if you come in and want to do
concrete driveways you have to either do plastic or concrete pipe. It's
required if you want to do a concrete driveway. That's one way to deal
with future, and then you've got the ones that are already existing, there
may have to be a different set of rules or whatever. That's one way of
looking at it, we've talked about that too, doing plastic or requiring
plastic or whatever. If you want to have a concrete driveway do plastic or
concrete pipe. Those are ways around that. I think there are some very
simple options here that we can get around with.
Sims: Let me ask a question and I'll ask my people, they ought to know more
than anything else. Richard do you know the difference and how long
plastic pipe last as opposed to corrugated metal?
Vance: It should....
Sims: Hold it Richard; let him get you the microphone.
Vance: Unless it catches on fire, it could last indefinably, I don't know how long
it last to be quite honest with you.
Sims: Ok.
Vance: But it will last longer than galvanized. It'd certainly be a good
alternate... that or aluminum either one over galvanized.
Sims: Ok. In other words if we have a fire out there or something like that it
could melt some of them down.
Vance: It could burn up the pipe. Yes.
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Sims: Ok. All right. Thank you. Did you have something, I'm sorry I didn't
mean to interrupt you.
Wassermann: I have some comments.
Sims: Ok. Mr. Wassermann.
Wassermann: Trying to be a little bit intelligent and well prepared for this thing,
knowing it was coming, we had the last one a year ago. I went out in my
precinct and I did some concrete driveway studies or surveys. I
conducted these between February the 19th and February the 24th of `09.
I blacked out the 6 names ...no I didn't want to put them up there ...but
they're on my report; of the 6 subdivisions that I looked at, and every one
of them has been planted since 2000 through 2007 when this regulation
was in effect. It says `Year Platted', that means completed homes, homes
with concrete driveways, asphalt driveways, homes under construction
right now. What I found out is the problem we are facing is that out of
169 homes that are occupied, people are actually living in right now,
there were 169 of those completed homes and 162 of those 169 had
concrete driveways. Most of them had concrete headwalls out to the edge
of the pavement. So, that's a very current thing. If you look at number
one up there ...that particular subdivision I got some note on this thing...
it consist of 31 homes right now, 30 of those have concrete driveways
and concrete headwalls. The subdivision was annexed and this is going
to give it away ...by College Station in March of 2008, so that ones not
our problem anymore, but it was up until March 2008 while we were
maintaining the roads. The third subdivision up there ...that particular
subdivision I think it has 70 homes finished in it, and 5 of those homes
have enhanced decorative driveways which means to me it's landscaped,
it's got stone or bridge rails on both sides, some as high as 4 foot.
Anywhere from 3 to 4 foot high. Maybe some are higher. And 98% of
those 70 homes in there have concrete head walls, and it's 100% concrete
driveways. 100% concrete driveway, no I think there was one.
And I guess in looking at this I wanted to know what was actually going
on so I could address it. I'm going to read you what my summary is.
When you have 169 finished or occupied residences and only 7 total have
asphalt driveways extending through the County right of way, the
conclusion I reach is that this problem is a, will be a perpetual one that
will never cease to exist, only growing in stature. I personally believe it
will continue to grow in number as the developments build out in our
rural Brazos County subdivisions. This is all in my precinct, Precinct 1.
There are a lot of others I could have surveyed; I just didn't have the time
to do it. It does tell me have an existing problem. And it isn't going to
change. I talked to road and bridge personnel all the time, I say, who,
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who, comes out to get the culvert permit? With exception of a spec
builder who has bought the lot from the developer and is going to build a
spec home on that, usually and most times, your HOA or your POA rules
require... property owners or homeowners association... require that the
land owner or the lot owner actually has to go out there and purchase the
culvert permit and has to have one on file, on record with the developer.
I researched some POA and HOA requirements and there's some
things... Commissioner Peters mentioned it awhile ago...I'd like to see it
put on the plat as a note that this is a requirement of Brazos County that
you don't do that. What he's talking about, that doesn't address the
situation that we have now that's in existence.
A lot of these subdivisions may be annexed in the next few years and it
becomes somebody else's problems, aggressive as they are. We have a
problem of existing ones and you can look up there and it says from 2000
to 2007, that's just sex. Some of them are very small consisting of only
sex homes that are completed or occupied. The largest one is...and that
one DBL, that means that some of them have a double concrete driveway.
A u-shaped or something like that, so you have two existing problems
and one resident. But if you've got 162 out of 169, we have a real
existing problem as far as I'm concerned. And we need to look at it and
address it that way.
I learned something from his discussion earlier today because I was in a
position to say that ...put the other one up there, it's the Happy Hollow
Homeowners Association Culvert Design Guidelines, and I changed the
names folks, there's not a Happy Hollow subdivision in my precinct. But
I want to show you what this particular homeowners association
has...and I've combined these, this is more than one. But if you look at it
they tell you what has to be done, you know, so forth, so forth, go out and
get your all driveways a lot access routes across the County right of way
you have to require each individual lot owner apply for the culvert
permit, prior to the installation. It tells you who to contact. But here are
three key things in that, number one; it says the cost of the culvert
installation and maintenance is the responsibility of the property owner.
That's where I'd like to see us go, if we can go there legally. If they want
a concrete driveway they've paid for it, either through... if a spec builder
built that house, that's what they wanted, they asked for that, they got it;
they had to pay for it up front, now it becomes their responsibility if
something has to be done to it. Well I don't know if we can go there.
Number two you can skip through that, but number three is really
interesting to me because it says it's the responsibility of the lot owner to
install the culvert at the correct elevation in accordance with Brazos
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County Road and Bridge department requirements. If the culvert moves
or is damaged during construction it's the lot owners responsibility to
replace or correct the culvert before pouring the concrete driveway.
Wow, they're hitting real hard because they're not discouraging it they're
encouraging it And I don't really care about that so much, but if you're
going have that appeal and that's what everybody wants, then you should
be responsible for having to pay for it if we have to come in there as a
County and do something. If you got landscaping out there and you got
brick or concrete or stone headwalls on both sides, as decorative items,
tuff. You wanted it that way you did it that way, you need to pay for it.
And that's just my personal opinion because I think we need to take the
developers out of this; this is my personal opinion and I don't how the
rest would vote; take the developers out of this and it put it right back
because they tell me at Road and Bridge the highest percentage of people
coming out there to get the culvert permit is the lot owner itself. And
some people in their POA or HOA requirements are requiring that to take
place that way.
So, who is not reading number six and seven on the culvert installations
where it's in bold print and highlighted... put it up there real quick. Yes I
do think we need to put it on the plat. And we already have it on our
County website. Number six and seven are highlighted and underlined.
Whoever picks up that culvert permit, they knew that was in there, it's
been there since 2000. We're not going to win that battle, that's what my
first survey showed you. So we need to go somewhere else with it. And I
say...and correct me if I'm wrong developers... I'm saying that I think
that the lot owner who hires a building contractor is telling them that they
want it that way. They want it that way, they see every neighbor having
it that way, and I want it that way, it looks better. And if it's a spec
builder building a house on a lot that they have purchased, well a lot of
our rural subdivisions don't have curbs, but it has better curb appeal.
Right? It has better curb appeal to sell, so it's going to happen, and it's
going to continue to happen as we build out, not only in Precinct 1 but all
over Brazos County. It's going to be a problem forever. It's just like I
said, it's going be a perpetual one, and it's only going to grow in size.
Because as I drove through these and looked upon that, in that survey,
which homes were under construction? Folks I saw, culverts already
placed, that's ok, for the contractors to drive across, but I saw anywhere
from 3 inches sub base on top to 18 inches of sub base. Now the culverts
already placed right, so there's going to be some failures if large trucks
drive over those things. But it there is a failure between the time that the
developer comes to us, the two year waiting period ...if something
happens or it happened during construction, some of these people already
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have it in their HOA and POA requirements, if that was damaged under
construction, then it's the property owners responsibility to have that
fixed and changed. If we go out there and make an inspection as Brazos
County to accept that road and something has been damaged, then it
should fall back the same way, it's the responsibility of the lot owner
before we accept that. And that can be determined between the developer
and the lot owners as to who is going to get that fixed. If it's going to
effect drainage, folks it's got to be fixed. But if it's going to effect
drainage, it has to be fixed ...we can't accept the road that way. Once we
accept it, it comes back to the land or lot owner. It's their responsibility
if they put that concrete driveway out there. If something has to be
repaired and changed, we should not be out any expense.
Now I'll back up, we'll do whatever we can legally by the State, but we
find out something new every day. These are some things I've just found
out personally because I want to be somewhat prepared when I come in
here and try to talk about these things. When you go 162 out of 169,
that's a pretty good fact that's pointing you right in the face and telling
you, this is the way it's going be. As it continues to be built out...I have
an e-mail... am I talking to long Judge?
Sims: No.
Wassermann: I have an e-mail from a...
(inaudible)
Wassermann: No, no. From a home builder to a developer the day after discussion was
made about concrete driveways, and asphalt driveways in the right of
way. I consider this part of the problem, but it's something that we still
have to resolve. I going to read this to you, I changed the names again, to
protect the innocent, ok? "I wanted to send you this e-mail to follow up
with our discussion yesterday about the asphalt driveways. The problem I
am having with customers is that when they're told it is a County
requirement they immediately point out, no one else had to." We're
talking about concrete vs. asphalt. "I know this is not entirely true but
they are correct in their observation that many are done that way.
Furthermore in the specific instance of John and Mary Doe, in Star Gaze
subdivision, when I explained the requirement to them, they contacted the
County for advice and possible alternatives. The County told them that
they could indeed install pebble concrete to the street, but if for any
reason the County had to do any work that involved tearing up the
driveway it would have to be replaced at the Doe's expense. Obviously
they chose to pursue that avenue. Subsequently, the information was
passed on to the Smiths with whom John Doe works and they also chose
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to use concrete to the street based upon the information given to the
Does. If the County gives them the go ahead to install the driveway per
(inaudible), I am obligated as their builder to do so. I have no choice but
to look at the situation as a variance that has been granted by the
County."
Now let me say something, Richard, I know that nobody at Road and
Bridge would tell them that, I know that. There are no variances. But
this is the context of this e-mail, so that's part of the problem, in other
words this builder feels obligated. If the homeowner who is paying him
to build their home say I want a concrete driveway. Going back to my
first survey up there, where this one subdivision had thirty something
finished homes in it and three asphalt driveways, one was a preexisting
driveway before the subdivision ever began, and the others were side by
side. So what does that tell you? Either a speck builder built that or the
same builder built those two homes and knew what the regs were or at
least they tried to start doing that, but it didn't catch on...the rest were all
concrete.
In my estimation, we've got a very definite problem and we need get this
resolved. And we need to get it resolved... in my personal opinion... in
such a way the County's not going be hurt, developers are not going be
hurt, but maybe the property owners if it fails. But you got to look at it
that way, if the culvert fails. And it's not 100%, they're not all going to
fail. But when it fails, when something has to be done, then somebody
has to be held accountable and liable for that as far as cost wise is
concerned. I'm through with my speech.
Sims: Yes sir Richard, you got your microphone?
Vance: I also have something I should of handed out earlier to you all. This is a
copy along with a list of the people that were mailed copies of this
information. The builders, developers, etc..
Wassermann: I want to say....
Sims: Wait, wait, Richard, Commissioner Wassermann wants to say one more
thing.
Wassermann: Association HOA guidelines combined. Ok, this is something I composed
for my own benefit, but I want to show it. Examples of homeowners
HOA's and POA's guidelines and these are combined; these are the few
that I could get my hands on across my Precinct. Where as in the POA or
HOA, the people have these things required in there, and written about.
Homes; square footage requirements, set back, fences. Look at that;
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location, colors, types wire and steel, decorative iron, solid, rail board,
pipe, vinyl, installation, the maintenance of it. The culvert design,
installation, size, and responsibility, but no where in there do I see in any
one I looked at any mention of the guidelines about concrete driveways
or mailbox set backs, which are County regs. And I'm just pointing that
out, not that I'm blaming anybody for that, but I'm saying there are other
ways in which you can get these peoples attention, that they're in
violation. We've had some other citizens that come through here on
different things like when we had this last time.
Most people probably commit these violations, not because they want to
but because they just are unaware of what was in compliance and what
rules were in place at particular time. And I can buy into that some what.
Because too many people just grab something they never read it
throughout. That 6 and 7 in there and it's good placement culverts
installation regulation and mailbox placement which is going to be dealt
with at a later time. But I just want to throw this out for conjecture right
now. As I did my survey I'm finding out that most of them are beginning
to comply with the mailbox placement for the five foot set back. So,
we're getting that point across really good. But this one is still having a
harder time to be accepted, and more receptive.
Vance: One of the major problems that I see from the Road and Bridge
standpoint, is when somebody buys a piece of property, they move in, six
or seven years later, give or take a few years, that culvert is going to fail.
When it fails, water is going to start backing up. We're going to end up
getting a call usually from the Health Department, saying "Hey, we've
got water standing out there, we got a mosquito problem." If we go out
there and rake out to get to that culvert and replace it, there's going to
pile of concrete on the man's driveway, and it's going to be there
probably anywhere from a week to two weeks. Plus, if we replace it with
concrete, as you know it's going to be 12 to 14 days before he can run on
it again. So that means he's going to be parking on the street, and not be
able to get to his home. And he is going to be extremely mad at
somebody. I may not be there and these particular Commissioners may
not be there, but somebody is going to be there, and there're going to be
very upset, because they can't get to there home because of this.
If it's asphalt, if it's gravel we can replace it in one day and he can be
back driving in there, it's no problem. The other problem that I've got
with it, and this happened to my son, is he hit a 15 inch culvert, running
about 30 miles a hour, put him in the hospital in a body cast for about
three months with a broken femur along with a broken lower leg. When
you got concrete sitting up there and you got a tire that hits that concrete,
not hitting a mailbox but it's hitting that concrete, and it's just like hitting -71 -
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a wall. That front tire ended up under the transmission. So the possibility
of killing somebody with that concrete is always there. That's without a
headwall. Like I say, the developer is not going to be around at that point
in time normally. The builders gone, but that homeowner is going to be
looking for someone to blame other than himself. I don't know what else
to tell you, but I can see some problems down the road, anywhere from
five to ten years, depending on the soil conditions. Now you can put
plastic in there and we would much prefer plastic over galvanize because
the plastic will normally be there much, much longer than the galvanized.
You can put aluminum, but aluminum, again, is quite expensive. At any
rate, you've still got that problem if somebody does go off in that ditch
and hits something. And we're not even getting in to mailboxes, that's a
different subject. That's all I got to say.
Sims: Does plastic work just as well as aluminum?
Vance: As far as I know.
Sims: And it's less expensive I take it?
Vance: It's very close, very close.
Sims: Ok.
Vance: In small diameters, now you get into large diameters, the plastic becomes
more expensive. Once you get up past 24 inches, it does become more
expensive. But, Frank, you...
Sims: Give us your name Frank, please.
Duchmasclo: Frank Duchmasclo, North Country Estates. Richard, I agree with you,
what you say about culverts. We started North Country Estates in 2000,
that's almost nine years ago. We haven't had the first culvert to go out. I
realize culverts can go out, but I think that's kinda putting the horse
behind the wagon. Yes, if goes out, you got to deal with it, but we haven't
had the first culvert out there, for example, in nine years to go out. So I
realize that would be a problem if it did go out, but I mean they last
almost indefinitely. Unless the water gets onto the pipe and I realize that,
and that can happen. Most of the time whenever we put in a subdivision
we have to do the drainage in accordance with what the County wants.
And most of the subdivisions I've been in, the drainage worked pretty
good, most the time.
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Vance: Well, Ed Iverson is not here and he's a long term employee of ours and,
basically, he would tell you it's really what part of the County you're in
as to how long the culvert last and the type of soil you're dealing with. If
you got a very high acidic soil, you got a problem. With some soils, just
pure old sandy soils it may last 15, 20 years. Like I say, it all depends but
whatever rule you make, it's got to apply to everybody ...we can't test the
soil in every subdivision to see how long it. But you're right that it can
last longer in some subdivisions than in others.
Sims: Yes sir, your name please.
Bayliss: Fred Bayliss, Saddle Creek, Sendera, and Bentwood. I think Mr.
Wassermann's research is accurate, it's true, the onus is on the
homeowner to get the culvert if he's going to get the cement driveway.
So as yall suggested, if plastic... which everybody says last much
longer... require plastic. If somebody runs off the road and hits an asphalt
driveway in a ditch; they're going get hurt as well. So I don't know if the
driveway being cement over asphalt is...I understand it's a concern but
it's going keep happening so lets put something in there that will last, and
go with plastic. Do all you developers agree that that's okay?
He's been nine years, Bentwood has been quite a few years, yall have
been quite a few years, and I don't think anybody has had one of these
culverts fail. Maybe some really old ones back when people were just
putting their own culverts in, but the ones in the subdivisions that have
been done right, with cement and all, seem to be lasting. It's like we're
spending all this time for a problem that has not been a problem since the
time that Mr. Wassermann's done his research which is 2000. We're
willing to help in any way we can, but putting the onus on the developer
to undo something we don't have control over is very difficult. Thank
you.
Sims: I don't think we're trying to put the onus on the developer, we're trying
to put the onus on the builder out there.
Bayliss: I'm not saying yall are....
Sims: And that is our big problem, I mean the developers have always been
very conscious of the problem we have, okay?
Bayliss: I'm not saying that yall have, but they have by not accepting the
subdivision because the existence of cement driveways.
Sims: I understand
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Bayliss: Yall have been very receptive to meeting with us and I appreciate that.
Sims: I understand that but the big problem is the developers wanting to sell
land once they get it subdivided out there. They want a builder to come in
there and build something on it.
Bayliss: Correct.
Sims: Homeowners want to buy the land and hire a homebuilder to come in and
build the type of house that they want, it's their dream house and all of
this; they forget that there are some things they need to read.
Bayliss: Right, I agree.
Sims: And that is one of the biggest problems. But I appreciate you being here
and I know you were at the meeting at Braircrest that day and the big
problem is the State does not allow to do...I don't think impact fees, is
that correct Kay? Because we are a County, we're not like a home rural
city. Anyway to make a long story short, I think we've go to solve this
problem.
Bayliss: I agree.
Sims: Because it's going be beneficial to homeowner's long term too.
Bayliss: That's right.
Sims: To me anyway. Let's see we've some other people that want to speak.
Martinek: Travis Martinek. I want to reiterate a little bit; the problem seems to be...
all the homeowners in our developments that I have talked to find it very
difficult to tear up a perfectly good driveway and replace it with asphalt
on the ones that are existing. The ones that are to be built prefer the
esthetics of the concrete. Every one of them are willing to come in and
replace the concrete if at some time in the future... whether it's 16 years,
20, years, 50 years or never ...the culvert fails, they'll be responsible for
putting in the driveway. The idea of tying in the plat, those are items that
will pop up at the title that will be transferred when the home sells, that
will be transferred by title. If the title moves to another property owner,
they'll be aware of it as the transfer occurs. I think the solution is simple.
I really do. I mean it's semantics in whatever...
Sims: Well, give me the solution.
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Martinek: Require the homeowner to be responsible for concrete driveways if they
need a repair, replace the culvert.
Peters: Let me just respond to that, the problem is and I agree, that's exactly
were it needs to be. The problem is under current law, I don't think that's
possible because the legislature does not give us...once we accept a road,
we are responsible for that road and I don't think they give us the
authority to say okay, homeowner you did this so we're going charge you
a fee when we replace yours. When we take over that road, we're
responsible for it. I think it's going take a change in the law. I think the
legislature's going have to give us that authority to charge those
homeowners for doing thing we didn't want them to do to begin with. I
just don't think we have that authority, that's what we've had our
attorneys looking at. Do we have the authority to charge those
homeowners for doing that? So far we have not found that we got that
authority to do it.
Martinek: I'm just being open here, I don't (inaudible).
Peter: Sure, I'm trying not to be either
Martinek: Not charge them ...make them do the work. Don't charge them, don't do
the work for them, put yourself in the obligation of charging them, if
that's were the law doesn't ...I have read the law and there's specific
areas that you can't do. If it's an issue of doing the work and charging
them for the work, they don't do the work.
Peters: And the problem may be, that when that road needs to be rehabbed, and
somewhere in the future there may be a point that the road has to be
rehabbed and we have to go back in there and do it, we might not have a
choice. Those things may have to be done at that time and then the
County's on the hook ...the way the law is right now...the Country's on
the hook. We can't tell that homeowner, you're going have to pay for
that because you put that out there. The County's going have to pay for it
because if we have to rehab the road and put in new culverts, the way the
law is right now, we don't have the authority to go back to that
homeowner and say, you're responsible for that, because you put it in
there. We don't have that authority. I know that the culverts aren't failing
today, but I'll assure you some time in the future they will and there's a
lot of them out there. I may not be on the court when that happens, I hope
I'm still around here and I'm paying taxes to Brazos County and I don't
really want my taxes raised because all these concrete driveways out
there, if it's 20 years from now. At some point in the future, those
culverts are going to fail, they will. They're going to rust out. It may not
be something that anybody on this court has to deal with, but some future
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court will be dealing with it. That's what we're looking at is long term
how we going deal with the problem. Really right now, I think we're
going have to try to get the Legislature to give us the authority to do
exactly what you're talking about. To get reimbursement for doing those
things out there that I don't think we've got the authority to do right now.
I like your suggestion, I think it's a good one and we've looked at it. But
I just don't think we...
Martinek: I was asking Fred if the County has the authority to enforce deed
restrictions if we can do it around the back way.
Peters: I don't think the County can enforce deed restrictions.
Bayliss: Can yall put on the permit that if you choose to do driveway a fine if it
has to be replaced or something like that? If they've disclosed that in their
permit up front that you can choose to do a cement drive, but if the
County ever has to replace it they will be fined X amount of money or
something like that as opposed to a impact fee?
Peters: We discussed some of that, and again if the Legislature doesn't give us
the power to do it, we can't do it. We haven't been able to find that
they've given us the authority.
Bayliss: Then until then, let's require plastic driveways and also as aggressive as
College Station is, there're going grab all of us in 10 years anyway.
Peters: That's right.
Bayliss: That is the reality of it.
Peters: This is County wide though, this isn't just down there where College
Stations...
Bayliss: I know with all the houses that are out there. They're going to go all the
way out to Milliken within, you know.
Peters: Well we got the north end of the County too.
Bayliss: I hope you're right, they will.
Sims: They may go all the way to Harris County, who knows.
Mallard: So, why do we have to replace the culverts?
Bayliss: Do what?
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Mallard: Why do we have to replace the culverts?
Martinek: I don't think you should to start with, I don't know why you even do it.
Mallard: Is there a law that says we have to replace the culverts?
Cauley: The roads getting all beat up and we had to replace the road and culverts.
Peters: For the drainage.
Cauley: Uh-huh. (positive)
Mallard: How many people to we have that we send out to replace culverts? How
many people do we employ to replace culverts?
Vance: It varies, but normally 4 to 6 per crew and they replace about 300 culverts
a year... give or take.
Mallard: 4 to 6 people inspect replacement of culverts by private contractors?
Vance: If we had some private contractor that could do that but we got one other
problem in addition to the culvert problem. That is, if we're going to
rebuild the road, we're going to have to cut that driveway back some
where between 3 and 6 feet, in order to rebuild the road and we've also
got to remove that mailbox if it's in that area. And this happened on
Forest Lake Estates. Now they didn't fuss about it because we were going
from a gravel road to a paved road.
Mallard: Yes they did. They called me.
Vance: But by the same token it's not just the culvert that we're having, it's
because of having to rebuild the road at some point in time.
Sims: Yes sir? Name please?
Almond: I'm Lyndon Almond, I'm with North County Estates HOA and as you
know the majority of the culverts or the driveways in our subdivision are
concrete. The homeowners prefer that by a large majority. They have an
option of concrete or asphalt in the deep restrictions. The majority have
gone with concrete. As far as replacing the culvert or tearing out the
concrete should it need replacing, we have not polled all of the
homeowners, but those that we have talked with, without a doubt
everyone of them said, we'll pay for tearing out the concrete if that's
what it takes. By far they prefer the concrete.
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Sims: Okay.
Bayliss: I don't think ours has an expectation other wise hardly.
Vance: Well, let me just say this; when we were paving roads we went out to
every house along these roads to be paved and we got something like
95% of the people said, oh yes we'll pay to pave our roads. But if it
wasn't paid in advance, it never got paid, in the majority of cases.
Sims: I understand that and the only authority we have is to file a lean against it
if the HOA votes to have a road upgraded, I know I ran into that several
time when I was Commissioner. And homeowners are smart, they say
`I'm not going sell this house anyway, put a lean on it.' The only way
you're going get it back is when it sells. Lord have mercy, some of them
are still living in those homes and and that's been 25 years ago. So I
guess they worked the system, and I understand that, I would too
probably if I were them. That's the biggest problem ...we are advancing
money to be able to take care of a driveway if you will, and probably the
chance that we won't get paid back for probably at least 10, 15, 20 years.
That's the only way we can get it back by state's statue.
Mallard: With no interest.
Sims: With no interest, yes there's no interest on it either. Okay, I'm sorry,
where we going? All right. Frank?
Duchmasclo: Well, the discussion we had this morning, I appreciate Commissioners'
Court, appreciate my fellow developers and homeowners, but we're still
not solving the problems. I'd like to suggest to the Commissioners'
Court ...Mr. Wassermann brought up a real nice deal about how many
concrete driveways we have in the County. Mr. Almond who lives out in
North County brought it up, these other gentlemen brought it up, the only
way we can solve the problem and get it done and get it done quick is for
the County Commissioners' to go ahead on and accept the concrete
driveways as they are because there are tons of them. As a County we
should have went back whenever this law was written in effect, I
understand it came out in 2005, Richard?
Male: Yes.
Sims: 2000.
Vance: It came out in 2000.
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Duchmasclo: I think mine deal here says 2000, and then this last one here I guess was
May the 5t' of `05. So the best thing for the County to do is to go ahead
and accept the concrete driveways that we have at this point, and then
from now on someone suggested putting it on the plats or whatever that it
has to be asphalt, if that's what we want. If, if, 20 years down the road or
30 years down the road the concrete driveway goes out, the culvert goes
out then the County can go back and pull the right of way deal that you
have here that everyone signs to get a permit to build a house or build a
culvert and say whenever this was put in, it specifically stated there
would be no concrete driveways, and so if you want the driveway
replaced or you want the culvert replaced, you're liable for it, and here it
is right here and it was signed by Mr. Jones back in 2010 or whatever it
was and let it be. Let's go on with the deal because we've got roads out
there that haven't been accepted. Developers like myself and other guys,
we spend a lot of money to build those roads in accordance with what the
County wants and it kinda puts us in a spot. I propose that's what we do.
County go ahead and take it on because we have a lot of driveways out
there now that are being made with asphalt. So, let's go on, I mean, and
get the problem solved, that's the only way to solve it. Go on about our
business and you got it right here. If those driveways have to come out
you can refer back to this right here. And you got it, if, they go out.
Vance: The only comment I'd like to make is, and that would come from our
legal department, and that is if one individual signs that and say it's been
through a couple of property owners does that individual living at the
house at the point in time that the culvert fails, is he still bound to that
same agreement?
Duchmasclo: Well, he lives there Richard so it's his house.
Vance: Well, I know.
Peters: It's his property.
Vance: I'd have to leave that to our legal department.
Magnuss: That's a contract question and the person who signed on the dotted line is
the one who's responsible. It does not attach to the home.
Vance: See, well that would my only concern.
Wassermann: I have a concern, and like you said and I believe it's something we need
to tackle real quick. Because we can't wait until another Legislative
session two years from now, and maybe not even get it changed at that
time. The problem exist today and people are waiting to get there roads
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accepted. I'm just one individual but if a culvert is failed and it shows
that it failed during that inspection by Road and Bridge people then that
has to be fixed and repaired before we accept the road. Probably most of
those if they happened, happened during the construction phase. Maybe a
concrete truck drove over it when it was still just a gavel base or
something like that. If it has failed during that construction period, then
needs to be fixed before we accept the road. After that, we have to find
something and this new legal thing that just came up this morning,
because I've been doing a lot of personal research on this thing and
writing down a lot fact and notes and everything else. What was going to
be my recommendation this morning that just blows that completely out
of the tub, I can read it to you right now because I have it written down,
and it basically says the same thing that you people as developers are
saying ...but now if we can't go back and assess a fee to property owner
than that changes that. We've got to do something, we can't sit here and
wait another year or two years and speculate as to if these culverts are
going to fail. Some might, but maybe not a lot of them. I personally as
one person up here, I believe that the lot owner, the home builder
requested it, they got it, they should be responsible for it. If it should fail,
but now I hear different things so I could have read my recommendation
to you, I'm looking at it right here in my notebook.
Sims: Read it to us.
Bayliss: If their septic fails yall go bust them on the head?
Peters: That's right, but that's on their property and that is their septic. This is in
the County right of way and it becomes County. That's the problem. I
agree we need to do something with the roads. We've got a lot of roads
out there that have got concrete on them now, and I'd like for us to do
something fairly soon with the ones that are pending, getting accepted.
We tried to stop it from now forward, back in I guess the Court did back
in 2000 and then we readdressed it back in 2005 trying to make it even
clearer. Maybe we're fixing to do it again here in the near future to try to
make things clearer that we don't want concrete. I talked with legal
counsel yesterday with some of the things we discovered. One of the
things is, that it's a criminal offense, class B misdemeanor to go out there
and be doing things to violate the subdivision regulations. Maybe if we
readdress it, put it in the plat ...I don't know about deed restrictions but
if the developers put it in theirs to make it clear that no concrete in the
right of ways and then whoever comes out and signs that driveway
culvert application we add to that the criminal law, it's a criminal law
offense, make sure that they understand it's a criminal offense if they go
out there and put concrete over the culvert when it's a violation of the
n
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County subdivision regulations. Maybe we can stop it from now forward.
I think I know what you're going say, everybody else has got it.
Bayliss: Let's go with the plastic, because that's going to be a battle that...
Sims: Well the plastic is not the only solution or is it a solution?
Bayliss: It's a solution. If it doesn't fail, it doesn't fail.
Vance: We have another slight problem I'd like to bring up also.
Bayliss: Okay, and also the thing about our experience hadn't been that people
have to wait 12, 14 days to drive on it. Put plastic in, it won't ever fail.
People are going to continue to do it, and it does look better. And who's
going maintain the asphalt driveways in the right of way? Yall are going
end up working on that all the time. If you say that's not the properties
owner's property and yall require them to put the asphalt. They look like
hell and they'd wear out.
Peter: We do.
Bayliss: That's more work then the speculative idea that the things will fail and
we put plastic in and they won't fail. I'd have a crew doing the asphalt
repair.
Almond: That's something we've noticed as far as asphalt, we had a few houses
that have been completed just within the last month and most of those
have gone to the asphalt over culverts to address this concrete problem
and we see a lot of inconsistency in that asphalt. Some of them look nice,
other ones are narrow, thin, you can see the grass coming up through the
asphalt already. We're looking at esthetics as well as your ability on the
thing.
Bayliss: There'll be more work replacing the asphalt than the culverts probably.
Vance: If I may. One other problem we had out there, is the fact that not
everybody puts their culverts in were it will drain properly. There is water
standing between culverts in several cases, and when people move in out
there and they go to mow their grass and there's water standing in the
culvert, or they call the health department, say hey I got a mosquito
problem; it's going be a hard problem to take care of under the
circumstances. I don't know what you do about it, but I know with the
concrete driveways is going be a major problem to try and correct it. That
is a problem that John brought up too.
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Mallard: So who inspects it?
Vance: We inspect it once the driveways are in and they say everything is
completed. We will go out and inspect it. And that's when we find the
problem. I think the other day Commissioner Wassermann went out with
Gary and he found a couple culverts where a concrete truck had driven
over the top of the culvert and mashed the pipe down to where the pipe
was only flowing about half full or something like that.
Wassermann: Less than that, almost nothing.
Vance: Almost nothing. See.
Wassermann: That was done during the constructions.
Vance: There was concrete already over the top of it that had hardened so, that all
is going to have to be broken out and the culvert replaced. We don't see
those things until they call for an inspection.
Mallard: And the developer fixed that as I recall.
Vance: That's...
Mallard: Yeah.
Vance: The builder or the developer ...I don't know which one.
Wassermann: That's what I recommended awhile ago, that either the developer has to
tackle that or the homeowner itself. That particular case, that HOA,
property owner association has that in their guidelines that it's the
landowner's responsibility. One thing I want to make sure that I make
this comment before we do anything is that we need to be consistent. In
my precinct, as I pointed out a while ago, we accepted the roads in one of
our subdivisions in 2004 that had 30 concrete driveways and 30
headwalls. Folks we've got to be very careful that happened. Now we
can't come back and say we can't do it for others because that's already
happened in my precinct. So we've got to be consistent or I don't want to
sit up here. That's my last comment, maybe. Thank you.
Duchmasclo: Mr. Wassermann and Commissioners I want to add to that, I had 10
phases in North Country accepted. I didn't even realize it, but it had
phases accepted with the concrete driveways. And then when 11 hit, I
heard about this. But it was 10 phases accepted and they were all
concrete.
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Wassermann: Well I'm an ex football coach so you don't have to believe everything I
say. I'm just kidding.
Sims: Let me ask you a question.
Wassermann: I'm just kidding, but I think ...excuse me Judge.
Sims: Go ahead.
Wassermann: I think it's going to be a continuing problem, I think it's going to be
forever as Brazos County builds out. We're dealing with it now, but
we're going continue to deal with it. There're going to exist and more and
more are going to come aboard. I don't think there's any question about
it.
Sims: Let me ask you a question Frank; this thing went into effect in 2000,
reaffirmed in 2005, is that correct?
Duchmasclo: I believe that's correct, yes sir.
Sims: Is that what it is? All right, you knew that no concrete was supposed to go
over those culverts when people were buying lots. As a developer, you
were selling lots to those people. Did they know that? I mean I assume
you knew it.
Duchmasclo: I did not realize it, no sir.
Sims: Oh, you did not?
Duchmasclo: I did not realize it.
Sims: Ok.
Duchmasclo: I mean I'm not going to use that excuse because I don't like to use
excuses. But there was a letter that supposedly went out to the developers
and told them but I never received a letter ...and that's gospel. I never
received a letter. So I didn't realize it.
Sims: Well I was just wondering because this has been in effect for a long time.
Duchmasclo: Yes sir, I realize that.
Sims: And it has been violated for a long time.
Duchmasclo: Yes sir.
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Sims: I guess what I'm saying is that is if you as a developer were reading the
County's regulations and either you didn't understand it or you choose
not to comply ...what do we think a builder or a homeowner that is maybe
going to build their own home out there ...they probably don't understand
it either. That's scary.
Duchmasclo: And the other thing that has been brought up this morning is 99% of the
people want concrete driveways.
Sims: I understand but what we want and what we get sometimes is not in our
best interest either.
Duchmasclo: I understand.
Sims: But I understand what you're saying but I do think that some way or
another ...we have so many of them out there that are probably not going
to be changed out... and what we're going to have to do is put these
things on the plats, make it very clear, and depend upon the developers to
explain to the folks that are building out there, `Please abide by the
County's regulations.' That is not to preclude but I, for one...you know,
income tax time is coming up and I can't tell tax people up in
Washington that I didn't understand what I was supposed to do. They
would throw me in jail real quick. We have to fix this and what you're
saying is not a way to fix it, it just perpetuates what we are doing right
now. And that's the point I wanted to make. I think it's a good
recommendation but it does not help us, it just perpetuates it.
Mallard: And you said, Judge, right so...that you will pay the IRS because they
will put you in jail. However, if you will notice, in the County, we will do
nothing.
Sims: Yeah.
Mallard: So why would you want to comply?
Bayliss: Do we have the power to change and require plastic culverts as part of the
permitting process?
Mallard: I think so.
Bayliss: Let's do that.
Sims: Probably the next legislative session we can do it.
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Mallard: No, I think we can require culverts. I mean why can't we require the
materials?
Bayliss: That'd be the best way to fix it.
Sims: But again, as I say, the pipes out there are not the problem necessarily.
Mallard: Yeah.
Sims: It's the concrete that's going from the asphalt road into the concrete
driveway in our right of way.
Bayliss: But doesn't the problem present itself when the culvert fails?
Sims: Well it will, yes. But that is still not the problem ...the culvert is not the
problem. Certainly when you have to replace it you've got to tear the
concrete out... granted. And that is an expense that somebody is going to
have to absorb if the County doesn't absorb it...and we probably end up
doing it.
Mallard: I don't know if the County is required to replace concrete over the top of
that culvert?
(inaudible)
Sims: I don't think we'd have to replace the concrete, no.
Mallard: So we are not required and the homeowners assume it's theirs. I'm sure at
the time that we tear out their concrete driveway they will tell us that it's
our fault since we torn it out. But, I assume that it would just be to let
them put whatever material back over the top of it that they so desire.
Schultz: The builders can explain to them all day but they are going to ignore us
and they're going to ignore you. One developer made a deal with a spec
builder to put two asphalt driveways in for him for free as part of the
sales price. We built the street. The houses wouldn't sell. They tore the
asphalt driveways out, put in concrete and sold the houses. So, you had to
take legal action but these builders are going to continue to ignore these
rules until there is legal action. The developers are going to do all they
can to make it work. But as far as tearing out the concrete and
expense ...but I wouldn't replace any. And, politically, that's going to be
a nightmare when you just put gravel back in where you cut somebody's
concrete out.
Sims: Yeah, and put asphalt down instead of concrete.
Vol Page q#K
28 of 36
Schultz: Well, just put dirt back in there and let them hire their own contractor. I
know that's tough to do but the reality is that it is going to be hard to ever
asphalt right. Because...
Sims: I understand what you're saying.
Schultz: ...most people are going to go out there one day and know it's your right
of way and tear it up and pour concrete. They don't come and ask your
permission.
Sims: Yeah. We may not know about it for a year.
Schultz: You may not know about it.
Sims: That's right. I agree. Yes sir?
Duchmasclo: I'm just going to bring up...to follow up what Mr. Mallard said number
13 of what Mr. Wassermann had put up there a while ago, it says,
"Brazos County will install only one (1) culvert/driveway; additional
accesses will be at owner's expense." So, can we if we needed to, kind of
stretch that out a little bit, reword it, or whatever? Because you have it in
there and they signed for it when they got the permit. It's in there. But
I'm saying go ahead and accept the ones that are out there... because
there's tons of them and let's move on with this. And then put some teeth
and enforce it from here forward if you want the blacktop on the
driveways. And that's the only way to stop this problem. Otherwise, it's
going to go on for the next two, or three, or four, or five years. And I'd
like to get it solved before I leave here.
Wassermann: Since this hit us just this morning about the legality of some of this stuff,
Kay...I'm going to read you something that I had written down and what
I personally thought was a solution and I want to hear you say that we
can't do that. Ok? Some of my notes preparing for today I said, `Why
can't Brazos County send a legally composed letter to every land owner
who is in violation of this regulation stating that for any reason Brazos
County deems it necessary to remove their culvert for drainage problems,
they will be accessed the cost of the removal and replacement plus labor
cost related to working with the concrete driveway in the following:
■ Saw cutting through concrete.
■ Upon completion of the replacement, the County will replace base
material and resurface with asphalt.
■ Should the land owner want the cut out area replace with
concrete, they would be responsible for the cost and the hiring of
a contractor to perform that work.
Vol q Page F9
29 of 36
■ If a landowner fails to reimburse Brazos County for the cost of
incurred, the County should be a lien on their property like we did
for the reconstruction of road in Precinct 3, Subdivision Hunter's
Creek.
We can't do that, right?
Magnuss: The County can sue, the County can not access a fee.
Wassermann: Blows that away.
Magnuss: You can sue the landowner for violating subdivision regulations. And
then, once the judgment is reached, that could be a lien against the
property.
Wassermann: In other words ...as we sit here today ...if a culvert failed out there ...if we
were to decide what we're going to about this issue today and next week
a culvert failed out there that has a concrete driveway over it then there is
no way that we can recoup the cost or ask the property owner to be
responsible for those cost?
Magnuss: It depends on whether the County has accepted the roads. Once the
County accepts the roads for maintenance, the right of way maintenance
becomes the County's responsibility as well.
Wassermann: See that puts us in a quandary because what we're hearing this morning is
that 95% of the landowners or property owners or homeowners out there
want the concrete driveway. But there is no way we can legally hold them
responsible incurred if we have to tear it out to make a repair ...once the
road is accepted.
Magnuss: Once the road is accepted, that's correct. You can sue them but there is
going to be a two year statute of limitations there. So you would have to
sue them within two years of the improper installation.
Mallard: The compromise may be to understand that the County would end up
absorbing the cost to tear out the concrete driveway to get it away from
the culvert but we would not have to replace it with concrete. We could
just go in there and put some gravel in. Should the homeowners later on
which to replace it with asphalt, concrete, stainless steel then let them do
it.
Bayliss: I second that motion.
Wassermann: But now I'm hearing that we can access any charges to the land owner
once we accept the road.
Vol 11q Page
30 of 36
Mallard: This isn't accessing a charge. I'm just saying we would end up absorbing
that cost of cutting out that part of the driveway where the culvert was.
Replace the culvert, put gravel down so they can get in and out and then
at such a point in time in the future, let the homeowner replace the
driveway with whatever they wanted.
Wassermann: If they wanted to replace it with concrete... they would have to hire a
contract to do it at their cost?
Schultz: Yes.
Wassermann: I just read but we've got a real kink in the armor right now.
Schultz: Let me add one thing years ago, if you were building a commercial
development here in town on TxDOT road ...they wanted asphalt from
the asphalt road to the right of way. Parking lots are usually concrete.
They abandoned that a few years back because with all the trucks and
traffic the maintenance of those driveways... they said, "We'll just incur
the extra cost when we rehab that old street." It's more cost to tear out
concrete. So it's very similar to what we have here now that they allow us
to do concrete driveways because they don't have to maintain them.
Wassermann: What I keep hearing from the landowners is the asphalt people who do
this kind of work don't do good work. We don't have anybody in Brazos
County that does that small of a job and does well.
Schultz: It's a linear project. If you can't get a good run and have all of the proper
equipment then, no, you're not getting a good pour.
(inaudible)
Wassermann: The small jobs are not good at all...they fail in six months.
Bayliss: So they do a crappy job and yall have to maintain it.
Schein: I think we need to start a fee for every new driveway. I think we need to
go back and for every future one we need to charge them two or three
hundred dollars a driveway permit fee...
Bayliss: For a cement driveway.
Schein: ...or whatever and put the money in the pot. And I don't see why you
need to put in any driveway for anybody. I don't understand that. They
Vol liq Page 611
31 of 36
don't do it in Travis County and places like that. So you have to pay for
it. So I don't know.
Sims: We'll research that Mr. Schein.
Schein: No, really.
Sims: Some counties do some things that, well I won't say that it's illegal but
they do. And we want to make sure we stay on the right side of the State
of Texas which is to be legal. We'll just have to see if that works.
Bayliss: I think Mr. Mallard sounds great. They're the ones that put it there, why
should yall put it back?
Schein: I wouldn't put nothing back.
Bayliss: Because a cement driveway is going to have happen, let's just make them
as cheapest for yall as possible.
Mallard: I think if we do get asphalt in, it's going to fail and we're going to be
dealing with that constantly and I think that is going to cost us as much or
more than if, in fact, we have to go in there and saw cut a piece of the
driveway and take it out. There is going to be a little additional cost. I
understand that.
Vance: We're putting in asphalt driveways all the time whenever we're building
roads. We just got through putting in fifteen, twenty driveways up and
down Deer Park using just seal coat not cold mix or hot mix. And it
seemed to work fairly well as long as you don't pull any truck traffic in
there.
Mallard: Ok. I hear you but I still don't believe that asphalt last as long ...I think it
takes a little more maintenance to it in that every now and then you have
to seal it and you have to do all of that. And I don't know that a
homeowner is going to do that or hire somebody so I see that as being
more maintenance than just dealing with the concrete. As long as we use
the plastic culverts, it's going to last a long time. When we do have to cut
them out it won't be as often but, yes, there will be some expense to it.
But we won't replace that concrete culvert and we'll let the homeowner
decide what they want to replace it with. They can put whatever material
over the top of it that they so desire.
Bayliss: Does it make it easier for yall if we have them put expansion joints?
Vol IIq Page qd~
32 of 36
Vance: It would help. Yes sir. You're right. If you put a key joint, a construction
joint on either side.
Bayliss: Mr. Vance agreed that putting expansion joints in would help. I noticed
that some of our builders have done that in the last few months. In
preparation for what might happen.
Sims: The next time we have this meeting we're going to make you sit on the
front row where you can get to the microphone.
Bayliss: But the builders that I've talked to are fine with the expansion joint idea
and also the plastic pipe idea.
Vance: That would be a great help. You're right.
Bayliss: We'd be happy to help with that.
Vance: Ok.
Sims: The developers will be happy to help with that.
Bayliss: To help with that.
Sims: Ok. I'm looking at a lawyer out there and I want to talk to those
developers that are going to help us with it.
Bayliss: You agree with that too (inaudible).
Sims: No, I know he does. I appreciate that. Is there anything else you guys
would like to present to us because we're not going to cut it off when
we've got other questions? We're still going to have to deal with this and
we will come back at a later time and deal with it some more.
Commissioners, do you have anything more or comments to make or
anything before we close out?
Jett: I do.
Sims: Yes ma'am. This is our Chief Budget Officer.
Jett: In reference to the comment that was made that this particular gentleman
did not know about the regulations... is there one person that we can give
that to to contact the rest of the developers so that we don't have the issue
of a developer not knowing what the County regs. are?
Vol ~ Page 01'.3)
33 of 36
Duchmasclo: Well all of the developments, all of the subdivision in the County are all
registered with the County and with have an ETJ with the City. Send
them all a registered letter or whatever.
Bayliss: I think we're all aware now.
Duchmasclo: Yeah, everybody is aware now.
Jett: But the regulation went into effect in 2000 and 2005.
Bayliss: Correct. But the developers... say you're doing your first development,
you hire an engineer to help you do development... they did everything
that was required for our subdivision to be accepted by the County. Then
we sold lots. We don't pull the driveway permit. And honestly, I'd never
seen one until Carrie Smith's subdivision didn't get accepted and he
called me. Then the same thing happened to Duchmasclo. Until that
time... honestly ...I didn't know either because we do our subdivision the
right way and then it's the homeowner who has to pull the permit.
Sims: I know the subdividors can not make those people read the rules but
somebody needs to tell them or they are going to be in violation.
Bayliss: Right.
Sims: I mean I hear Frank saying that he didn't get a copy of it. I bet you it went
out some place... somebody robbed his mailbox or something.
Bayliss: But in the mean time will it be helpful and I'll not get in trouble by telling
the builders to put the expansion joints in while yall wait until the next
meeting happens?
Sims: We will put a rush order on that consideration.
Bayliss: Ok. Because I don't want to get trouble for encouraging cement
driveways.
Sims: Ok.
Vance: May I ask some help out of you in one other aspect and that is mailboxes.
If yall would take and look at mailboxes and if you see a mailbox that's
closer than five feet to the driving surface... you're help would be greatly
appreciated.
Sims: Richard, we have another workshop coming up on that ...as you well
know.
Vol 11q- Page C4
34 of 36
Vance: I understand. I'm just...
Sims: Giving a heads up. Please help us. Right.
Vance: It's a heads up.
Bayliss: Mr. Vance, I'm about to do a letter to all of our people that build and I
will make sure that that is in there.
Vance: Thank you.
Sims: Ok. Gentlemen, do you have anything else you would like to say having
to do with driveways? Yes sir, Frank ...I knew you would.
Duchmasclo: If you have a concrete driveway that you got replaced and you've taken
the concrete out... if you have a blacktop that you're going to
replace... there's not that much difference between the two. Think about
that. Because there has been a lot of emphasis made about having to
replace the concrete. Well, if you have to replace the blacktop and the
culvert and the sub-base and all of that... about the only expense
difference between the two is just the concrete. So think about that.
Sims: Ok.
Bayliss: And they're not much different, right?
Duchmasclo: I understand you have to haul off the concrete but the old blacktop
material has to be hauled off too.
Vance: But you have to break it out.
Duchmasclo: Well, that's true, Richard. I understand that. But that is something else.
The best thing I may say again and I promise I won't say another
word ...the best thing to do to solve this problem is go ahead and accept
the concrete driveways that are done like we've already accepted many,
many of them in the County and let's move forward if you want the
blacktop driveways. Let's put the team in there and let's get this thing
rolling.
Sims: Thank you very much.
Duchmasclo: Thank you.
Vol JJq Page 15
35 of 36
Sims: Gentlemen, do you have anything else you would like to say? Ok. I will
adjourn this workshop session of the Commissioners' Court. Thank you
for coming.
Tape ends.
Vol Page
21 of 21
The foregoing minutes of the Commissioners Court Workshop
held March 5, 2009, have been examined and approved in open
Court this the day of 20()~, in Bryan, Brazos
County, Texas.
Q
Randy S' Ks Lloyd assermann
Count Judge Commissioner,
Precinct No. 1
u
Duane Peters Kenny Mal d
Commissioner, Commissioner,
Precinct No. 2 Precinct No. 3
Carey Ca ley, Jr
Commissioner,
Precinct 4
Attest:
(N~" ~~,~j•-/fir
Karen McQueen
County Clerk 411
Vol Id Page 7
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