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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2008-04-15-9:00AM-WORKSHOP SESSIONBRAZOS COUNTY BRYAN, TEXAS NOTICE OF MEETING AND AGENDA BRAZOS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT WORKSHOP SESSION THE COMMISSIONERS COURT OF BRAZOS COUNTY WILL MEET IN A WORKSHOP SESSION ON TUESDAY 15 APRIL 2008 AT 9:00 A.M. IN THE COMMISSIONERS COURTROOM OF THE BRAZOS COUNTY COURTHOUSE, 300 E. 26TH STREET, SUITE 115, BRYAN, TEXAS. 1. Call to Order. 2. Review of the current Brazos County policy regarding culverts and mailboxes that are placed along County roadways. 3. Discussion regarding enforcement, and possble revisions to update this policy so that it better meets current needs. 4. Adjourn. The Brazos County Courthouse is wheelchair accessible. Handicap parking spaces are available. Any request for sign interpretive services must be made two business days before the meeting. To make arrangements, call (979) 361-4102. Office of the County Judge • 300 East 26t' St. Suite 114 Bryan, Texas 77803 Fax: (979) 361-4503 !t7 -:~aD I of 36 COMMISSIONERS' COURT WORKSHOP SESSION April 15, 2007 The Commissioners' Court of Brazos County, Texas met in a Workshop Session on Tuesday the 15th of April, 2008 at 9:00 a.m. in the Commissioners' Courtroom of the Brazos County Courthouse, 300 E. 26th Street, Bryan, Texas, with the following members of the Court present: Randy Sims, County Judge, Presiding; Lloyd Wassermann, Commissioner of Precinct 1; Duane Peters, Commissioner of Precinct 2; Kenny Mallard, Commissioner of Precinct 3; Carey Cauley, Commissioner of Precinct 4; absent Karen McQueen, County Clerk. absent Attached is a list of the citizens and officials in attendance. Attached is a transcript of the meeting. Vol 101 Page do Lt 2 of 36 BRAZOS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT Culverts and Mailboxes April 15th, 2008 Tape begins mid-sentence. Sims: ...and I will open the workshop of the Commissioners' Court and call it into session this 15th day of April, 2008 at 9:02 a.m. and call this workshop to order. I do want to make a few comments... those of you who have cameras, please stay out of the other people's way. Thank you. This is a hearing for us to gather information from not only the general public but from our Road and Bridge department and to address Brazos County policy regarding culverts and mailboxes that are placed along rights of way. We would like for anyone that would like to make a statement... there will be no comment from the bench to you. We're trying to get information and problems that we want to try and address. There will be no decision made in this workshop session. Any decisions that are ever made on something like this will be posted on a regular Commissioners' Court meeting. So with that in mind, Richard or Gary whoever wants to start first... give us a little bit about the policy that is in place now and then we will take citizens comments also. Vance: I'll let Gary do it. Arnold: In our subdivision... Sims: Wait a minute. Excuse me, Gary. Give me name, please, and if you work for the County, then what department if you do not work for the County, your address please. Name and address. Arnold: Gary Arnold, Brazos County Road and Bridge. In our subdivision development regulations we have ...and it's always been in there ...an item that discusses obstructions in the right of way. I've made a copy of that stuff. So you have that? Wassermann: Yes. Arnold: In 2005, we were having a problem with subdivisions exploding everywhere and big mailboxes getting built. So we clarified that with an addendum about the mailboxes and the driveways. It still continues. They are putting these mailboxes in the shoulder of the road and we're not going to be able to maintain those roads. If we ever come back and try to rehab a road or seal coat or asphalt or whatever we're doing ...the Vol 101 Page g ac')- 3 of 36 mailboxes are actually up in our subgrades. So the addendum to move them five feet back gets it out of our subgrade where we can maintain the road. If somebody puts up a mailbox that is five feet... if they want to put a permanently mounted mailbox. We provide a mailbox stand if they want to use one of our stands or they can put up a break away that they can buy. They put one of those up and they put it five feet back and we come out and build a turn out for them where the mail carriers can get to the mailbox. This is going on countywide. In 2005, we tried to get a handle on it with this addendum because these things are getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Sims: We're getting more of them. Arnold: We're getting more of them. So, it hasn't stopped. and we can't do our road maintenance. So that is the reason we're trying to do something about it like can we move them or can they get moved. We have to be able to do our work. So that is where we are at today. Sims: Ok. Mallard: At the present time we have no inspectors or anyone that is going out? Arnold: No sir. Mallard: Occasionally, people will view them but we don't go out and do inspections and tell people that they have to remove them. Arnold: No. Vance: If I may add something. We have discussed it with... Sims: Richard. Vance: Richard Vance, Road and Bridge. We have discussed it with a number of developers. I sent a letter out back in 2005 to developers I have copies of it...telling them that they were responsible. Like with North Country they said, "That is the builders. We go by one day and two days later we come by and the mailbox is already completed or the driveway is completed. So it's your job...not our job. So you need to put the responsibility on the builder, not on the developer." But we felt like the developer was the one that should be the one responsible because they're developing the subdivision. We just don't have the personnel to drive around checking these things. Because in 48 hours from the time they Vol 10-7 Page a- a-3 4 of 36 start, they're through, and they're gone. That's one of our problems. But if you look at our Standard Subdivision Development Regulations dating back to October of 2000, it states on Item 12, page 15, "No squares, islands, or other obstructions to traffic should be reserved within the right of way." Within the right of way. "This shall not exclude small parts where the streets are properly curved or esplanades. If exceptions are permitted, traffic lanes shall be required to be 12 foot in width with additional shoulders and appropriate delineations." Now that was in 2000. Mallard: And in 2005 it was, again, written in another section as well. Arnold: We asked to explain it. Mallard: Explained it even further. Vance: In 2005, this is the actual permit that the owner is required to fill out which shows the five foot from the edge of the driving surface. Mallard: I see this also is...kind of breaking it down into two issues ...one is for the future what are we going to do with the future in trying to deal with this issue. The issue of brick mailboxes becoming more and more prevalent all of the time. I think when Gary and I rode around on Friday, we actually went into a neighborhood where the existing neighborhood and been there maybe twenty years and now somebody decided that they wanted it so they actually put up another brick mailbox. They had a regular mailbox for years and then I guess they saw the view that they saw. So they are having a resurgence of existing neighborhoods coming in and replacing their mailboxes and putting those in. So we have to find a method to deal with that. And I don't know if that is creating a situation where, obviously, the County government tries to stay as lean as we can and not do this. But is there some point where we're going to have to create some sort of inspector or someone who will go around and try to find these mailboxes on a regular basis to either get them removed or make them stay in compliance when it's done. And the bad news is we'll only find them after they have been put in, generally. How do you deal with that? Vance: May I say something else ...in the postal regulation itself, it states, "Approval of such custom built boxes will be done on a case by case basis by the Postal Service." Now if these folks have something in writing from the Postal Service authorizing that, that's one thing. But if they don't have anything in writing... because that is a Federal regulation. So there is a regulation regardless of ours ...there is a Federal regulation also. I guess it's their job and not ours to enforce that Federal regulation. Vol ) b l Page 2`~ 5 of 36 Mallard: Correct. Well, once again, it's always after the fact. And we don't have anybody going around and inspecting all of this. So once it's in place, it kind of stays there until we have construction going when it really comes to a head, it seems like, or existing. As I said, I see it as two issues ...we have existing and how do we deal with that. And the other is that we're going to have those that are going to show up in the future and how do we make sure that they are dealt with fairly in a timely fashion so that they'll know about this. Because there is nothing ...if somebody wants to change out their mailbox... there is nothing to tell them. I mean we don't tack a notice on their door every week so that they'll remember, `Oh, yeah, we need to think about calling somebody before we put in that mailbox.' I cut the telephone line to my house one day and I didn't know where it was but I did. So I had to call and I had to pay to have somebody come out and repair that. So, we're trying to find some way where the every day homeowner or citizen or landowner out there is not going to have all of these ordinances or remember for all of this time ...so how do we correct the situation for the future and deal with it? And that could be for our culvert situation as well. Instead of installing culverts like we do now, maybe we create an inspection for culverts to tell people where they can put it, how to put it in, give them the rules, and then have a private contractor install it and then we inspect it. And if it is not put in correctly, then they would have to correct that situation. Vance: See, when they got to put a culvert in, they have to fill out one of these applications. Mallard: They should. Vance: They should and it specifically tells them what they can do. But I don't, short of having a large group of people circulating throughout the County looking for mailboxes or...these people put in mailboxes literally in 48 hours. Mallard: I agree. Vance: From the time they start to the time they finish. Mallard: But do we have to do that? Vance: Unless you're right there ...you know. Vol lo-7 Page ac) 5 6 of 36 Mallard: Well I think if somebody can continue to make the rounds and we have our Road and Bridge out on County roads... Vance: But they're busy. They're out doing specific jobs. Arnold: One of the problems we have is we have a two year maintenance period before we accept the subdivision. In that two year period, I don't even know if we can ...we don't maintain it. Mallard: And usually, somebody is going to have to have a mailbox before two years. Arnold: That's correct. That's when a lot of this is taking place. I know it's County wide and just like what you said ...John Brown comes in there and he's been living there twenty years and he's like, "Well I'm going to put me up a mailbox now." Yeah, we do maintain those roads. But the ones we don't maintain ...I don't know if we can go in there and enforce that. The maintenance responsibility... it's dedicated to the public. We don't even maintain anything in there. That's when a lot of this is getting done. Sims: Tina, you had your hand up. Would you like to speak please? Snelling: Yes, Judge Sims. Tina Snelling with the Brazos County Attorney's Office ...I frequently give advice to the Commissioners' Court. In this one, I think it's important to remember that Brazos County is not Exxon/Mobile; it's not a private corporation. It is a governmental organization that was built to serve the public and the people. When a dedication of a road is made of a private subdivision, there are easements that are described in the deeds, and I will get to the published regulations, and there is common law that provides, all together that when a public easement is dedicated, no private individual can take that portion of a piece of property or easement that is dedicated to the public's right to use and enjoy and abscond with that or make that for their own personal benefit or gain. And because of that rule of law...that is in the statutes, it's in the regs...that provides that a County, a City, a State, governmental entity has a mandatory duty to remove an encroachment that violates the publics right to use and enjoy that piece of property. Again, no private person can take a piece of public property and use it to their private gain. So that is what this County is confronted with. That you have a duty ...not just the right ...to remove any impediment that violates the public's right to use and enjoy that property. Vol 10-7 Page 0,;~ 7 of 36 It's also there for another reason; health, welfare, and safety. We have drainage issues. But I won't belabor the point. The second thing that I also wanted to note to the Court is that when you're driving down a residential street ...I think we all know or we should know ...just because it's not posted, you drive 30 miles an hour. So just because there's not a sign there telling you doesn't mean there is no law that exist. And a County's regulation that is in existence that has been promulgated, even though it's not published on the street doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's one of the basic fundamental tenants that you learn in law school or as an individual that ignorance of the law is no defense. The same goes if you're driving in excess of 30 miles per hour in a non-posted subdivision; you know you're going to get a ticket. Those were the comments I wanted to make. Ms. Magness will be here to follow up with any other observations. Appreciate it. Sims: Thank you. Mallard: I do agree with what you're saying as far as it's no excuse but people have to have a mailbox and they have to place it somewhat close to the street because, otherwise, the post office is not going to deliver the mail. If they put it up in their yard somewhere, that's not what they're going to do. So there has to be some way to get that information out to the homeowners, the builder, and I believe a lot of that is already out there. We've heard in our Town Hall Meeting that we had with Hunter's Creek that the builders recognize that. One homeowner said he had his home builder building the mailbox and he said, "I know where it's supposed to be. But people tell me they want it right up here." As far as putting it in. So, we don't know. I don't think it's the developer that is telling them where to put it or necessarily or the builder or maybe it's just the brick layer. The homebuilder says, "The homeowner says they want a brick mailbox. Go put it up there by the road." And so they do. Well the flat spot is where the base material is on the road section and they'll put it right there. If they put it any further back, it's more of a slope and they'd have to dig out and build a pad there to do it. So they put it where it's the easiest to them. And that's all they've been asked to do is build a mailbox, they didn't say where. So where do we affect that for the future to give people that information? Do we go into an area where we haven't accepted and put a tag in the road somewhere and say, "This is where you can put your mailbox." I mean at some point ...the fact that we don't accept the road for two years is a good thing for the County. Because we can find all of those weak spots in the road and then after two years we can accept it. Vol Ib7 Page o-a"7 8 of 36 Sims: After it's repaired. Mallard: After it's repaired we can accept that road. But the problem is the fact that we don't deal with ...we have all of these ancillary things that pop up that are causing the homeowners and landowners grief and causing the County grief and we're having to have these meetings. So that's what I'm saying ...we have to get beyond what, necessarily, the law says or something else ...we have to find a way to correct this problem for the future. If we have to change the way we do business a little bit to make this so we don't end up in this debacle all of the time. That's what I'm hoping to accomplish. Sims: Commissioner, I want to make a comment ...I don't think you meant what you just said, "Get past what the law states." Mallard: No, not to violate the law. Sims: I mean we are a nation of laws and we have got to abide by those laws. And whatever, it may be...but I understand where you're coming from but we do have to certainly abide by the laws. Yes sir. Back in the back. You're name and address, please. Stone: I'm Jonathon Stone and I live at 10053 Hunter's Run. And I appreciate your comments Mr. Mallard because I think if we take what the lawyer said about removing all of the impediments from the right of way we'd have to move them, basically, the seventy foot right of way mark. And then build the homes driveways up to our mailboxes. So, I agree with your comments that there has to be some kind of compromise in that it's not just about removing all impediments out of the seventy foot right of way or there would be fifteen feet or ten feet away from the roadway. My second comment would be that while I am not trying to be ignorant of the law and I'm not trying to be a law breaker ...we just built ours before the law was articulated in 2005. And we built ours even before the County came in and adopted the road. And we feel like that that was the time when the County should point out these issues is before they adopt the road. They've adopted our road and now they're threatening to rescind that adoption of our road because now we don't meet the new standards. And we feel wronged by this. We feel like we were under the old, unarticulated, ordinance. If that makes any sense. So I can understand trying to enforce it for the future but we as homeowner that have been there for many years feel slighted because we did it before 2005. We Vol lo-7 Page g a K 9of36 already had our roads adopted. Even after yall had the ordinance, you went through and adopted the road. Why not bring it up at that point. Sims: Shane? Name and department, please. Phelps: I live in Nantucket, 1621 Harbor's Ferry in Nantucket. I want to kind of echo what this gentleman just said that this is not just an issue about the Draconian compliance of the law that nobody seems to know about. The perspective I have is as a homeowner that has moved into a neighborhood who bought a house just exactly the way it was. And the neighborhood that I come from is fifteen to twenty years old. And every house in that neighborhood has a mailbox right up on the pavement and no one ever mentioned word one about that. Now one of the fundamental things I learned in law school is a concept of due process ...a fundamental, fair notice that if we're going to enforce these laws or write these laws then we have to make sure that the public has the opportunity to know about the law and then comply with the law. As I understand they way this process works in this County is there has to be some kind of County permitting process or city permitting process. These builders or developers have to go to somebody and get some kind of permit. And it occurs to me that that process entails them knowing about these requirements and regulations and complying with them in order to get those permits. The problem is that those people come in, they built the home, spec homes or custom homes and those get sold to somebody else and there is no enforcement out there. I don't know how many times the road has been surfaced in my subdivision over the last fifteen or twenty years but this has not been an issue. But what is happening is innocent homeowners, frankly, such as myself, who just bought two or three years ago...my home was built before this 2005 regulation was apparently articulated and now I'm being told that there is going to be...from what the attorney from the County Attorney's office said ...you just don't have any choice. You've got to go in there and tell us to tear out all of these mailboxes... that's your absolute duty. Well, I think you also have a duty to make sure that the citizens of this community are aware of that and recognize that there has been a significant amount of time in which people have enjoyed their mailboxes with post office included being right up to where they are without any problems, without any issues happening and then all of a sudden we're going to just draw this Draconian line and say, everybody has got to tear these things down. The bottom line is, it's going to cost me thousands of dollars to do what you ask...or what we're contemplating because my mailbox is right up against the pavement. But right behind my mailbox the culvert begins. So Vol 0.7 Page 10 of 36 I'm going to have to put my mailbox way back in my property. Which means I'm going to have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to build a driveway to my mailbox. And that's not fair. So the concept of fundamental fairness should enter into your considerations as to how to handle this. And the concept of due process than simply arbitrarily deciding because we have one problem in one subdivision that everybody has to pay that price. Sims: Ok. Thank you. Yes sir? Name and what organization you're with? Spencer: Kevin Spencer, I'm with the US Postal Service and we're at 2121 William Joel Bryan Parkway East. First off, as we get notified by somebody who wants to put in a brick box, we've been telling them about the regulations of the five foot requirement for a brick box plus they're required to put in a turnout. Now, we have the same problem we all have that the brick box goes up in a day and we don't know that it's happening. I can only relay to you some of the experiences that we have had lately with the State in regard to brick mailboxes. They sent a notification out to the homeowners, notifying them that it is illegal to have them within the right of way and they are told that they will have to dismantle the box or they will dismantle them for them and then they will bill them for the dismantle. Now they will put a frame up for them. So I don't think that there is a requirement trying to be stating that you've got to put a turnout in, approve a brick box, five feet from the road. My understanding is I think it is more of a brick box problem that the County or the State will still put a frame up for a customer at that location and when they come do the roadwork then they can turn around and take the frame and do what is required and put the frame back. But it's a little bit more difficult when you have a brick box because you would have to completely dismantle the brick box and then put it back together when they're working on the road. So that's the experiences we've had with them. They just go out and tell the homeowners that it is the law and you have to dismantle the box. The ones that we have experienced... they went ahead and put up a State frame in it's place. I don't know anyone right now that has gone and put a turnout in or a driveway or anything else. They've just gone ahead and put a frame up in lieu of the brick box. And I also think it's a safety issue with the State. Especially they are concerned because they want to have a break away item there in case of an accident. And with the brick boxes it's more of a consideration of a safety issue in case there is an accident there with the brick box not yielding as much as the frame. And that is the two issues that we basically deal with. Vol Iu-7 Page X30 11 of 36 The Post Office is mostly concerned about if the box is off the road then having a turnout that we can safely get to and carrying you back on the road while I have no fear of getting hit. Or getting stuck or whatever the problem is going to be. But that is our thing that we have been working with the State on is even if it's just been dismantling them and putting up frames. Sims: Basically, what he is calling a frame is a concrete bottom with a 4x4 in it. Is that...? Spencer: (inaudible) would take a frame (inaudible) the County. Mallard: The State does a metal but we do the base. Sims: Oh, ok. We do the concrete base bottoms. Spencer: (inaudible) post in the ground and then put the box and attach the box to the frame for the customer (inaudible). Sims: Yeah. And those use to be free ...is that not correct? If a citizen calls and says, "I need a mailbox stand.", then that's what is delivered out there to them and they can deliver mail to it. Spencer: I did want to put it on the record is that it is not the Postal Service policy to make somebody dismantle their brick box. We're concerned with delivering the mail safely to the homeowner and continuing on down the road to the next location. The only thing I would be hesitant about is if somebody puts them way in their driveway ...a lot of these routes are reviewed and calculated according to the time it takes to go from one spot to another. A good example would be boxes that are blocked and people say, "You can dismount and go out there and put mail in the box." Well, it's a box on the street... you're supposed to keep your box clear. It's the responsibility of the customer to keep that box clear. Sims: No cars parked in front of it and this type of thing? Spencer: Trash cans, whatever. And so if it is blocked then the employee has a right not to deliver mail to the box. But our concern is that if something happens that it's going to turn around and have an impact on the postal service on delivering to the routes and we need to be aware of that. And then review their route and consider how much more time it's going to take. The more time it takes, the more employees you need. Sims: Cost to the taxpayer. Yes. I know that in my addition where I live which is inside the city limits, they have these metal/steel like we have in the entry Vol i C1 Page p-31 12 of 36 to the courthouse. And it has about twenty mailboxes in it. Of course, I always stop in on the way home ...I don't live very far from it...probably about a hundred paces and I could go out from my house. Still, I'm not real sure we might not want to take a look at putting something like that in where a mail delivery person can stop, load up twenty boxes. Spencer: Some developers are putting those in. Sims: I like that. Arnold: We've had luck with developers starting to do such things like that. Sims: Good. Spencer: Don Adams, I think, put in a group of his own...they're put in by the developer... it's not something that the postal service pays because it can cost a considerable amount of money to put in some of those units. But we do have locations where developers have put in those units. Sims: Right. And it makes it very convenient to the citizens, I think. Spencer: Well really, it benefits the post office in that you only have to make one stop. You're there at one location and put all of the mail in there and go on to the next location. So it's one stop instead of making twenty stops. Sims: Yeah.Ok. Mallard: I can tell you from our meeting that we had that the majority of the people preferred... they already had their mailbox in front of their house and they want to continue that. So it will be difficult to get away from it. On new subdivisions, I guess it is up to the developer to do that but to go back and try to retro fit that ...I don't know how well that would work. I don't think the citizens would be behind it. I just see that we have a disconnect on our two year waiting period where we're allowing something to occur and it's going to be in violation. And we know, for sure ...with our seal coat process that we have now, there may be a way to deal with it. Obviously, in trying to roll out the rock after we've put in the asphalt materials it appears that that is the equipment that the tires are inset. It appears that it's less than a foot that this inset is. And most of these mailboxes are about a foot off of the road. In a lot of the subdivisions that Gary and I went and looked at, they were close to three feet off of the road where these in the one subdivision what brought this all to the forefront... Hunter's Creek ...is about twelve inches or a little bit longer. Close to a foot. There's a possibility that we can go out there Vol 10 Page p 3;t- 13 of 36 and have them roll this out the way it is. But getting a heavy piece of equipment that close to a mailbox is just opportunities for bad things to happen. I don't know that we can take responsibility if we bump into those mailboxes and knock them down because of where they are. Sims: Or damage them. Mallard: Or damage them. Vance: May I say something? Sims: Yes sir. Vance: One of the issues that I see on Arrington Road. Arrington Road is a sixty mile an hour road. But they are right at the end of the pavement. Well if somebody delivering mail stops ...it's right in the driving lane. And somebody is on a cell phone comes sailing down that road and they're stopped putting mail in...it becomes a real liability to that person putting the mail in getting hit from behind while they're putting the mail in the box. In other words; they have to stop in the lane ...they can't pull off to the edge of the road in order to put the mail in. That doesn't have anything to do with the construction aspects but now if we get to inspecting... my suggestion is that instead of Road and Bridge being the inspector, we need to have law enforcement... somebody that can write tickets or do something. Because all we can do is tell them something and they just thumb their nose at us and go on. If you've got a person in uniform that goes out there and says, "You can't complete that mailbox at that location ...you have to move it back so far." They're going to listen to law enforcement a lot quicker than they are going to listen to somebody from Road and Bridge. Sims: Yes sir. Name and who you represent. Dombrowski: Derek Dombrowski, I'm from KBTX media. I just have a quick reporter question. In regards to the roads; what is the difference there between the roads that are within the city limits being maintained and the roads that are not within the city limits but in County limits being maintained? Is it the curb that is helping the equipment work itself? I did drive around and I saw mailboxes close to the curb within the city limits. So in regards to a maintenance... not a safety... aspect because I can see the point there ...my curiosity is what is the difference between those two types of road? Sims: I can tell you one...it's outside the curb. They have room to work on the road. Vol 10 7 Page a33 14 of 36 Dombrowski: Ok. Sims: Because they can't go out there and work on top of that curb anyway. So you're outside of the curb and then the street is on the outside of it. Dombrowski: The curb being the difference there? Sims: There you go. Arnold: Usually the gutter is eighteen inches and then you add that six inches side of the curb ...it's usually a 24-inch section difference between the driving surface and the back of the curb. Usually. Vance: Normally your city streets are wider than the County roads ...that's another issue. There is more room for a vehicle coming up behind to go around. Whereas on a County road, that is only two lanes wide, normally 22 to 24 feet wide. Sims: Ok. Yes sir. Name and address, please. Purifoy: Larry Purifoy, 9912 Hunter's Run in Hunter's Creek subdivision. I just have one quick comment and then I have a doctor's appointment. The picture of this piece of machinery is from one end only ...if you go to the other end of it, I believe there is probably five tires... correct me if that is wrong. But the front tires are designed to offset this differential in the rear so that all aspects of that vehicle is covered in one pass. Arnold: That's correct. Purifoy: So I think in all fairness to everybody here ...we should have had two pictures of this machinery. Arnold: We can take that and get it to you. Sure can. Purifoy: Right. So, again, with the operator doing his job...I understand some of these mailboxes are within inches but they can slow down and do it. Like I talked with a gentleman a while ago...I've got some experience in this from my past careers and there is some handwork, possibly, involved. But I think the cost to the County to do what is being proposed here is going to be pretty astronomical. We call it degrading our tax base ...if I take a thousand dollar mail box away from my house, I would assume my value would go down a thousand dollars in that residence. You take that times the number of mailboxes in Brazos County alone ...the tax base would be diminished by, what ...a million bucks? I mean yall are here to represent Vol l o-? Page 00 15 of 36 us, the constituents, (inaudible) public officials that yall are here to be our representatives with the government entities that whatever you're elected to do. Sims: And to enforce the laws, yes. Purifoy: Right. And as I pointed out to Commissioners Mallard the other day...that's who everybody reports back to. The bottom line is the taxpayers, the voters, the citizens of the United States. Sims: Right. Purifoy: (inaudible), basically, (inaudible) supervisors. And I do appreciate the overall effort of Brazos County like I told him; I could live anywhere in the world and I choose Brazos County to live in. I think it's a good place and I'd like to see it maintained in what we have and not go backwards and put drainage issues in jeopardy if we do all of this. There is a lot of thought to be done. And with that, I'm going to excuse myself. Thank you. Sims: Thank you. Appreciate your comments. Mallard: I know if the mailboxes are moved back to that five foot line, the County will come in and put in a turn out for that. That was just one point I think everybody was talking about having to move them back. And we'll also have our superintendent for each precinct come out and site locate that for the homeowners, if necessary, to show them where it could be put so it would be off the roadway. We provide that service but if they don't know they need that service ...how are they going to know that they need to call? Now we can do it for the future. Phelps: Mr. Mallard, may I ask a question about that? Earlier there were several regulations that were mentioned and one of them ...I think somebody made the point, I don't know if it was the attorney from the County Attorney's office or Mr. Vance ...but that there is something that says that there should be no obstructions what so ever being in the right of way. Is that five foot set back still within the right of way? Vance: Yes. Arnold: It is. Phelps: Well are we going to find ourselves in a position in ten years after I move my mailbox back that somebody is going to come along and say, "Wait a minute, you're not supposed to have anything in the right of way at all...now you have to tear it down again."? Vol 10-7 Page 16 of 36 Peters: I would consider... Mallard: We all have to have a mailbox and the postal service is going to deliver on the road. So, I can't answer that 100%. I don't know what another Commissioners' Court is going to say then but I can't imagine them saying there can't be any mailboxes at all. Even the State says you can have a mailbox. Now they restrict it down to what they consider the safest area of what they consider a breakaway post with just a metal mailbox on top of it. And that is pretty minimalistic. They don't want these large structures out there beside the roadway? Phelps: Well is there any distinction in any of these regulations between a brick mailbox and a regular old mailbox? Mallard: I can't answer that specifically as far as whether they said. I know that the distinction, mainly, is we want it five feet off the roadway and the County's distinction is we want the brick mailboxes five feet off of the roadway because to try to make it a little bit safer. Phelps: And that makes sense to me but that was something that was put in place (inaudible). Mallard: The metal mailboxes have to be a certain distance off of it just so we can effect a change. I will tell you that on the brick mailboxes, for sure what will happen, if and when that road has to be rebuilt that are all of those that are on the base material... all of that base material has to be ground up. That's part of the road section in the way we build roads. And that, for sure, will cause all of these brick mailboxes to be removed. Sims: Or relocated. Mallard: Before we can do construction. Now by relocating ...I remember when we did the paving on Forest Lake Estates on the new addition that they had out there. It was a gravel road and petitioned paving and they went in. We rebuilt those roads. We removed about half of the mailboxes on one side of the road. We took them and laid them down in the people's yards. Phelps: I appreciate that but I think that's speculating into the future. I don't think anybody disagrees that if the road has to be widened... Mallard: Not widened, just rebuilt. Phelps: ...or rebuilt that that may be something that has to happen at that point. That is not the situation we're in now. Vol 10-7 Page ;2 -3 to 17 of 36 Mallard: Right. Phelps: And my biggest concern is that if the regulations that don't make that distinction between just a regular mailbox and a brick mailbox ...if that regulation was not articulated until 2005, you have hundreds if not thousands of households in Brazos County that were built before that. That were then built, apparently in compliance. Because if there was always this idea that mailboxes could be in the easement as you just suggested and the five foot setback wasn't articulated until 2005 then you have thousands of people who in good faith have mailboxes where they are not that are now being told that, conceivably, we would have to move. That's a significant expense. And so, again, it's this idea that I appreciate that you have to enforce the law but there's also this concept that there is a duty on the part of the County to make sure that the citizens are aware of it and not to change the law and then when they do to make sure that the citizens know that. So that we can minimize our damage when things like this happen. Which is something that, I think, we need to keep in mind. There should be at least some type of consideration for some grandfather clause for people whose homes were built before that 2005 five foot set back that was articulated. That is just fundamental fair play. I understand when it conflicts, ultimately, with the public good if something like rebuilding a road then something has to be done. We all appreciate that. But just the idea that we're going to send out this edict that everybody has got to take these mailboxes down at significant expense, I think, is simply unfair. Mallard: Well, we're not going to have them take down the mailboxes but, obviously, the one that came to point in my precinct is Hunter's Creek because it is under the seal coat that we're going to do this year. That is why that triggered that issue. Phelps: And that makes perfect sense. There is no question. Mallard: So we're not talking about Nantucket right now... Phelps: Well, we are. Mallard: ...we're talking about all of them. That they may eventually... it's going to come around and happen to everybody as it does. Vol 10-7 Page .237 18 of 36 Phelps: And as we discussed yesterday, I don't think that is an issue. Ultimately, if the County takes the position that when this situation arises, we're going to see if we can do this without causing all of this significant monetary damage to our constituency ...we're going to see if we can do without it first. We're going to try and seal coat the road. Apparently, it's been done in my neighborhood for fifteen years without any problems. And if we can do it then we're fine. Everybody's fine. If we can not do it then the individual property owners inertest conflict with your obligation to serve the public as a whole and I think we all know who surrenders under those circumstances. But that is not the situation we're in. I think that there should at least be an incremental step where there is an emphasis on, `Let's make sure that we are going to enforce these rules. That everybody knows about them so that they have that due process, fundamental fair play concept that I can make sure that I'm not going to put myself in this position later on. But then when this conflict does arise, that we're doing everything we can to make sure that we're adversely affecting our constituents. And if it, ultimately, comes to the point where we don't have a choice then we'll face that when we come to it.' Arnold: That is where we are today. That's what we're trying to do, Shane. Mallard: The last thing I want to do is tear down everybody's mailbox. But, like I said, there are two issues with that ...one is, obviously, the safety issue. I have a real concern because I know that there have been some cars having accidents with brick mailboxes and they're pretty serious weight in the object there where they get smacked into. I don't know where that is going to end up because it hasn't happened a lot. But with the mailbox issue, I really don't think that it's thousands of mailboxes that are out there because I've driven around and it's... Phelps: You have a couple of hundred in Nantucket alone. Mallard: I know. It's hundreds maybe but not thousands. Phelps: In Nantucket alone, you have a couple of hundred. So I think you're probably looking at thousands. Mallard: I think Nantucket is pretty special as far as the way they have done it. I don't think the brick mailboxes have come into effect until in the last few years. Because when most roads, especially on the Hunter's Creek roads, it's usually post that are put up out there. Mostly I think that the County ones are the brick bases and the wooden post. Whatever it is or not, I think Vol I b Page 0238 19 of 36 it's something we need to address because it's accelerating as more and more people move out into the County and into the rural areas, they're going to want to put up brick mailboxes too because they're going to build their house out there and they're going to want to do it. So we have to be able to address something to get the word out and get the information out to people so that they won't be building their mailboxes so close for safety reasons and to have the difficulty in us maintaining the road. Because even though we may be able to get by that ...it's always going to be...if you could have it where you can go and do your road work without worrying about inches away from somebody's property, it would be a lot better. So let's try to find a way to set that up for the future and find some way to try to deal with the mailboxes now. Maybe we need to send out a notice to County residents that have brick mailboxes and alert them that at some point in time when this road gets rebuilt, you're going to loose your mailbox. I don't know. Where do we start that? And does it do any good to do it today when it may be ten years down the road and that house may have sold once or twice. So where do we affect this change? Magness: To continue with that, every subsequent owner is going to be complaining, "Well, I didn't know." Sims: Right. Magness; But in fairness to the County, homeowners are informed of that when they sign their deed because the deed always says that easements are recognized. And the public right of way road easements is there, it's in the plat, subsequently, in the deed that the homeowner signs. Sims: Yes sir? Stone: Again, I appreciate your comments Mr. Mallard about the safety. I actually think it can be broken down into three issues; capability, liability, and safety. And I believe that it's capable to maintain the roads up against the mailboxes. I've seen it done. We've seen it done through maybe fifteen years. Tiffany Park has all of them six to eight inches apart, away from the roadway. That's what we were told and that's what we built it. Liability, if we have to move it to the seventy foot mark ...all obstructions to get it out of your liability ...it would, literally, be fifteen feet off the roadway to get it out of... Sims: Who told you that was the way you built it? Vol 1d Page 937 20 of 36 Stone: It says it even in the postal regulations to build your mailboxes six to eight inches off the roadway. If you look even at the information that they passed out, I think, it lists that. And so everybody in our cul-de-sac did six to eight inches off. Sims: You complied. Stone: With the regulations that we were aware of at the time. Yes sir. Vance: Excuse me. But it also says any custom built box is on a case by case basis approved by the postal service. Stone: I asked the court ...my understanding of that is that it's an actual box. If you look up LISPS Standard 7, that is actually the definition of a box. Meaning it has to be eight inches wide or nine inches wide and X amount of height. So if you build an actual box where they put the mail in as a custom box, it has to be approved. I don't believe that they're talking about the structure that that box holds. That standard is talking about the actual box the mail goes in. Some people would want a custom one instead of buying it from Lowe's. Sims: Now we're getting into semantics, aren't we. Stone: Then I had one other issue with capability, liability, and safety. I believe that the major grounds for this issue is that you need safety. To move it five feet off for safe reasons for high speed roadways. But there is a difference, to me, between Hunter's Creek neighborhood which is 30 miles per hour and Elmo Weedon which is 60 miles per hour. I completely understand moving obstructions off the roadway of a high speed roadway but as soon as you enter a neighborhood it just doesn't make sense to me that you have to move it to control cars. It's just a different safety issue. Thank you. Sims: Ok. Bill. Name and who you represent. Jeanes: Bill Jeanes, Brazos County Risk Manager. I'm going to address the safety issue here. The reason the State went with the break away boxes is because even at some 30 mile an hour test they would have boxes that broke loose and there would be boards or whatever that would fly through the windshield. At 30 miles and hour and you hit a brick box, there is a good chance there are going to be some bricks hit the windshield. That's the safety issue. That is also the liability issue since we know that the State has done research and that is a danger in a right of way, that's the reason the State went with the breakaway boxes. Now in most counties or the counties that I'm familiar with, they used a breakaway box. Some of them Vol 10. Page d 4o 21 of 36 are gang boxes where you'll have four or five together. But that's on the rural areas. And these are subdivisions but the same thing applies as far as the breakaway boxes. That is a liability issue and I would think as a homeowner that I would want that protection of using that breakaway box rather than a solid, practically immovable object in case somebody did run into it. Because it would just put me in a situation where I felt like I might get sued along with the County for not having the breakaway boxes. From the standpoint of Risk Management that is my issue. I understand the brick boxes are beautiful but they are also a liability and a safety issue. Stone: I happen to live at the end of a cul-de-sac so it would have to hit dead on and if it was five feet off, it wouldn't matter. Sims: Ok. Yes sir. Richard Vance. Vance: In the past we have encountered brick mailboxes for years. If we've got probably eight to twelve inches to spare, we'll go ahead and seal a road. The problem here is in some cases they're literally right on the edge of the driving surface. So there is no room for error when your roller is going down the road. And if he moves over two inches, he's going to hit the mailbox. If you've got at least somewhere between eight and twelve inches, minimum, usually the least paid employee we've got is the guy on the road out there. In many cases, they may not even speak English to be quite honest about it. So they don't have cross hairs in their eyeballs when they're going down there to be sure that they're exactly right up that edge. They may be slightly over. And if that mailbox is that close to the edge of the pavement, he's going to get it. If he's got twelve inches of clearance, he'll probably miss it. Only way I can tell you is just like in your case is take you a level out there and run it down and see if it's right at the edge of the pavement or if you've got a little bit of leeway. We try to work with people as best we can. But in some cases, some of these mailboxes we can work around but some of them we can't. It's just the way it is. We're not trying to be hard to get along with. We try to do it as best we can. But when it comes to rebuilding that road ...like you said Commissioner ...it's a different story. You have to rebuild that whole area so consequently, the mailbox is going to end up being removed. But that may be fifteen or twenty years down the road depending on where it's located. Sims: So there is a possibility that 24-foot driving surface is going to shrink when you go out there to reseal coat it. Vol I o Page 2 1 1 22 of 36 Vance: True. Yeah. And just from a mail standpoint, I would hate to stop in the middle of a fairly long straight away to put mail in a mailbox knowing somebody is coming up behind me even at 30 miles an hour and talking on their cell phone and not paying attention to somebody stopped in the middle of the driving lane. Sims: Ok. Arnold: They have a section in their regulation that says, `Boxes must be placed to conform to State laws and highway regulations. Mallard: So how do we get the information to the homeowner? So they have to put in a culvert. They have to put in a septic system. The septic system has to be permitted. Stone: This is permitted. Mallard: Is it? And this is permitted? Stone: Right. Mallard: All right. So how do we add a mailbox permit? Stone: It is. It's right there on here? Mallard: Well then how... Sims: How come it's not happening? Arnold: And that's the reason the addendum went out in 2005 because it was getting stopped. From 2005 to 2008, it still has not stopped. Somehow or another we have to deal with it. Mallard: What is the answer? I need an answer. Gallego: Commissioner Mallard, it seem like to me it's a matter of educating the builders because I built a home two years ago and I never told them where to put that mailbox, how to do it...I relied on the builder to know. Mallard: So we're going to tear your mailbox down? Gallego: You might. I don't know. But it's a matter of enforcing and educating the builders. Mallard: But it was built fairly close to the roadway? Vol 1~1 Page aka 23 of 36 Gallego: I'd have to inspect it, I'm not sure. Arnold: You live in the city limits. Gallego: Now. It's been annexed. But don't you still maintain those roads? Arnold: No. The city does. Gallego: You did for a while. Mallard: Well, we're not getting there. Arnold: I understand. Mallard: We have all of these great pieces of paper and we have all of these great ordinances but we're not getting there. Arnold: Can the sheriff's department go out there and give citations? Mallard: I don't know. Arnold: I don't know. Magness: For enforcement? Arnold: Yeah. Magness: No. There is no authority for the Sheriff's department to enforce that. Arnold: Does the County have any enforcement anyway? Gallego: Except to remove it. Magness: To remove it. Of course, I think it would be fair to notify the homeowners in advance. You could do it by neighborhood. To notify the homeowners... Mallard: I want to get to it before. The whole idea is if we're going to do something, let's try to do it so that somebody doesn't put in a $500.00 mailbox just to have it torn down. Arnold: This happened the other day...we actually had some homeowners say, "My builder knew it. We knew all this. Everything was good. It's on our permit." The information is out there guys. Vol ]D Page a~f3 24 of 36 Phelps: Does the County have any kind of regulatory or enforcement authority over the builders? Wassermann: Yes. Phelps: Because it occurs to me that you have two issues here what you're talking about Commissioner Mallard is that it's this idea that the builders and the people making these subdivision and the developers who are responsible for making sure these homes are in compliance. And then what happens is that he has just put up the mailbox, they sell it to somebody and some poor schmuck homeowner like me buys it from the people who originally bought it from the subdivision people with no notice what so ever and then I'm in this position. So from your perspective I think there are two things that you need to address. Number one is how do you go about making sure that these people who are building the homes who are responsible to make sure that these things are built according to the regulations. And that's what you need to look at is that process and what the County can do to hold those builders accountable. The second thing you have is that there are innocent people in that stream after the home is sold... such as myself and a number of other homeowners in the County ...who never had notice of this who have bought a home, who have a mailbox that's never been a problem and now I'm looking at the potential of having somebody send me a statement that we're ripping out your mailbox. I don't have an issue at all if it conflicts with the County's ability to maintain the road ...I understand that. But not just because somebody says, "Hey, this is the regulation therefore it must come down." There is this notice that if the County has failed over the years to enforce ...just like anybody else, then they kind of lose the right to enforce it. I think that's something that (inaudible). Sims: Where does personal responsibility come in? Magness: They do not lose the right to enforce it. The County's rights supersede a private person's rights. Phelps: I don't think that the County gets to never enforce it and never give notice to the community and then just step in and arbitrarily enforce that. I think there is something... Vol p Page a q-W 25 of 36 Magness: But as far as the developers go...the developers do post a bond, is that right Gary? Arnold: Yes. Magness: And so there would be some enforcement against the developers to that extent. Mallard: No. Magness: No? Mallard: That bond is for the roads. It's not for the... and the developer sells lots. He's not in the building business. So, therefore, once he sells those lots, he doesn't have any stick over the builder. Magness: It becomes the builder's. Then what we need to do is look into having the builder individually post a bond for access ...I mean there are other issues too, not just the mailbox issue. Mallard: Right. Magness: The culvert issue. The concrete that is being emptied out into the road. Mallard: And the septic systems. Magness: Right. And then as far as a solution ...the County is offering to come out and set up the base and install the post for the homeowners so it's not going to be an onerous burden on the homeowner. If he wants an esthetic looking mailbox then, sure, he's going to have to do something himself. But as far as putting up the base, the County is willing to do that. Mallard: Well the base is just a little concrete base with a post on it and they would put their little mailbox on top of that. That is nothing compared to their masonry situation. We're still ...and I don't know ...maybe in this legislative session, the Counties were given some more powers as far as subdivisions are concerned and that is what we need our legal staff to try to find out what we can do. Before that, I don't think the County had any powers. We don't have ordinance making powers like the cities. A lot of people say, "Well, why don't you do this? I don't want my neighbor burning their household trash in the back yard because it smells." We don't have any control or ordinance making power. Most of our stuff is legal and our law enforcement can only do more criminal type situations. So we're precluded from doing that. Vol Page a 4S 26 of 36 And that is what I'm trying to find out is what can we legally do? Is there some permitting process because there is no inspection on a home. Everybody buys a home out there and they think it has all of the same safety features and inspections that a home in the city. It has no inspections. None. Nobody goes out there and tells you whether your house was done. There is no official outside of the builder's responsibility to do the right thing and all of their trades people to do. And they do. I'm not saying they don't. But there is no inspection. There is no independent inspection outside of just the builder and their tradesmen doing the right thing. Sims: Let me ask a question... this is not going to get people to read a plat but if we make the developers on a plat, write that just like he has to define other things on that plat ...maybe put that in that plat having to do with this mailbox. And maybe, hopefully, somebody that is looking at a piece of property within this platted property out there will determine that they can not put their mailbox where they would like to put it. Maybe that is something that we need to do. Mallard: And it is. And you know what... Gallego: You rely on the builder to know that. Sims: Well you shouldn't rely on the builder. I'm saying where is personal responsibility? Where is personal responsibility? Gallego: You pay the builder to know all of the stuff and to build all these things by law. The builder should be responsible. Sims: Don't assume. Mallard: But in the city they take care of that. Gallego: It would be a personal responsibility if I'm going to change my mailbox and go build ...then I feel I should look into the law and see what I need to do. But if I'm hiring someone that is a professional to build by house and mailbox, they should know the law and they should follow it. I think there is something that needs to hold the builders responsible. Sims: I think a good example of that is that I want to put a fence up. I can't encroach on my neighbor's property. Gallego: Right. Mallard: But they do. It happens. Vol I o Page 27 of 36 Sims: But what I'm saying is you have personal responsibility to get a surveyor out there and have it staked and then you can put your fence up or have somebody come out and put your fence up or contract with a fence contractor to do the survey and put the fence where it should be. Gallego: But do you go out and do the survey or do you hire someone that should know where the survey is? Sims: You're right. I don't disagree. But I'm going to take those precautions. Gallego: But you're still not looking it up and doing it yourself... you're hiring a professional that is supposed to know. Vance: Can I say one thing? Sims: Yes sir. Vance: I wrote a letter on May the 6"', 2005 to all developers and builders that we knew of and I also copied Commissioners' Court on it. It's not very long... see attached. Now that letter was sent to every builder and every developer that we could come up with. And then I copied all of the members of the court with that letter. Mallard: Richard, it doesn't make any difference because we have no control over the builder. And when he said to put it on the plat ...you're right, there's a plat, Woodcreek Subdivision, it's on that plat ...this road will never, never, ever, ever be taken over by Brazos County. The developer told everyone just wait two years and the County will take over the road. They all went to closing with their plat ...they have a plat, comes out as a 2/3 foot plat and it's reduced down to fit into the closing documents and you can't read it. There is a gray area over there where it says "...never, never, never, ever will Brazos County ever take over this road." It's in this little plat. It's all fuzzy. You can't get...there's only one copy of it. If you know to go to somebody and find that plat, you could find it. But you don't. There are all of these loopholes. Unless you have some form of regulation capability and enforcement capability, we're not going to have any way to deal with it. We have no stick and no way to force the people who we ask them to do it... "We have regulations... you better go do it." And they say, "Well, what if I don't?" Well, I don't know. Phelps: Well do they have to have a County permit or anything to build a home? Vol 10 Page a'+7 28 of 36 Mallard: No. Nothing. Not a thing. Arnold: No. Mallard: Your house was built (inaudible) people and you hope they did the right thing. And they probably did. Peters: There is no inspection that goes on out in the County. Mallard: But you don't know it. There is no independent inspection done on any construction. Electrical, plumbing, framing, roofing, whatever. Arnold: I can't remember who it is Builders of Texas ...but now before they can sell a house they have to have it inspected. They have to have it inspected after the fact. Mallard: Do they tear out of the sheetrock to find out what the electrical looks like? Arnold: That's right. But at least they do something. `Cause Brazos County does not inspect buildings. Phelps: They don't issue permits? Mallard: We don't have the capability of permitting. We're not allowed. Phelps: Well even if each and every home that they built ...don't they have to have a license from the County? Mallard: No. The only thing that we inspect are septic systems and that is the health department that does that. And they do that after the fact. Arnold: And we regulate the flood plane. Just to see if they have complied with flood plane regulations and that's all. Mallard: Flood plane and septic system. And they do the septic system after they build this huge house on an acre lot and they don't have enough room for it. Wassermann: Judge, can I make a comment? Sims: Yes sir. Wassermann: Yesterday afternoon I went out to three of the subdivisions in my precinct and there are a lot of them. But I made a tour of them ...and just for my own information, I'm not going to name these subdivisions. But this is Vol Ion Page 49 29 of 36 what I found out...one of them was platted in 2001. It's built out with 22 homes and even then back in 2000 we had it where you couldn't have a concrete driveway all the way up to the edge of the pavement, mailbox, and so forth. But out of those 22 homes that is built out, everyone has a concrete driveway right up to the edge of the pavement, only two of the 22 don't have headwalls which we say you can't have over the culvert and all 22 of the mailboxes are right on the edge of the pavement. On the other two subdivisions I won't name them of course ...the other two were platted in late 2007, just coming on board. And in one of them there are ten houses, eight being built right now from the ground up, two are finished and out in front there is a sign by the builder with his name ...it's a spec home, and who to call and everything... and those two that are finished and one of them is right in the very front of the main entrance to this big subdivision... the developer does a tremendous job when he builds a development. There is 100 feet of right of way on the main entrance in the roads that go through that subdivision which is planning for the future. So that gives you a large 15 foot right of way on each side of the 70 pavement. But in this particular... those two homes are finished out and they have concrete right out to the edge of the pavement and bulkheads which are two and a half foot high. In the other subdivision, there is only three homes that are still unoccupied but built out in that subdivision and they all three have concrete driveways right out to the pavement edge. They all have headwalls on the culverts. And there is one mailbox foundation poured ...just the little square ...and it sets right on the edge of the pavement to date. Now going back to the one subdivision... these people know what the policies are because the developer has told me personally. But he says, "I can't be out there every day. And in a half of a day that driveway is poured." That gives that home for that spec builder curb appeal. So much easier to sell it that way. But it's still in violation but we have no way of enforcing that or making sure that it doesn't happen. But I would be willing to bet and I have the gentleman's name that built the house but I bet he knew those regs. I bet he knew them well before that happened. For the future, for safety reasons, we have to get a handle on this. What has happened fifteen or twenty years ago...we resealed the streets there in Nantucket last summer ...maybe twice since I've been in office ...2005, different parts of it...no problems. But to get a grasp on this, we have to do something different. Because nobody is paying attention out there to what these regs are. Whether it's the developer, whether it's the Vol 1 o Page 249 30 of 36 homeowner, or whether it's the home builder. They are just not following those things. And it's going to be difficult but it's something for safety and that's all I'm concern about. We have to do some things. And everything I say will be relative to the safety of our people involved in that. Because if you have a 30 mile an hour speed limit that means that most of them are going to drive 45. If it's 60, they'll drive 75. And I'm more concerned out there with the rural area where there is faster traffic. Last summer on where the speed limit is 55...it's a County owned well developed County road, smooth as glass... somebody had a stone mailbox in my precinct sitting right next to the pavement. Somebody hit it and knocked it down. I went and personally talked to those people and said, "Here is your opportunity to move that back. We'll build you an apron." In two days, it was rebuilt on that same foundation. Because they just looked at me and said ...you know. They hired somebody to come out there and do it. It was of limestone. It goes up too fast; you can't police all of that. I don't know where the answers are but we have to start looking for those answers and we have to have something that has a little bite to it. Whether it's bonding or whatever it is to get their attention. Because there are some monuments built out there. I had somebody in my precinct, a high school age student that ran into a mailbox, demolished it, totaled their car, and within two weeks the homeowner was going to build a castle out there. Said, "If you hit it again, you're not going to buy it. It's going to buy you." And we did stop that one because we heard about it. But it's really hard ...I'm talking about brand new subdivisions in the County far out enough where they're not going to be annexed in the near future or anything like that. But nobody is following... and they are pretty well known now after our addendum in 2005...that between those three entities... developer, home builder, and the home owner. You have to touch all three of them. Somehow the word has to be given to them with emphasis up front before it ever starts. That's my talk. Thank you. Sims: Comments? Peters: Yeah, I have one comment about trying to notify people. That subdivision that you were talking about, Kenny, where... and I know that that plat that they had when they printed it out it was so small you couldn't read it but one of the neighbors that didn't want that thing to happen who had adjoining property put a 4x8 sign out there and it said, "Buyer beware. This road is not maintained by the County and will probably never be Vol 1T Page a5b 31 of 36 maintained by the County." It was up there that whole time that all those people drove out there and looked at it and bought their lots and ended up building and then they began to complain because the County wasn't maintaining it. They were aware of it when they bought that stuff. You could spend a million dollars sending letters to people and I don't think it's going to do any good. I mean if that didn't ...and that whole subdivision sold out in spite of that big sign being out there that said, "Buyer beware." So, I mean, I don't know how in the world ...you can hit them in the head with a 2x4 and I don't know that it would do any good. But I think the only way we're going to get a handle on it is just with a bond. I mean until you make somebody put some money up and they know the only way they're going to get their money back is if it's done right according to specs then they are just not going to do it. There is no incentive not to do it. So if we require and I don't know what the amount is...but when they come in for this driveway permit and mailbox permit, we require that they put up a bond, money, whatever, and you get that back when it meets the specs of the County. Then when they come and they say, "I'm ready, you can come out and look at it. It's done." They get their money back if it's done right. And if it's not done right ...if they build a big brick mailbox right on the edge of the road then they don't get their money back. Sims: Or tear it down and make them put it where it's supposed to be. Peters: Exactly. Phelps: Well do you have the authority to require those bonds. Peters: Well that is what I'm not sure of. Phelps: If you have the authority to require the bonds then you have the answer to your problem. Mallard: Right. If. And I think there are some new regulations... Phelps: (inaudible) you don't get your money back and we have the authority to tear it down. Peters: I think we have the authority to tear it down. I mean I think if it's in our right of way, I really think we can... Phelps: Well I think in any circumstances where you have somebody such as what Commissioners Wassermann was talking about, somebody that has been given notice and they rebuild it that way...once they've been given notice Vol Page =x;1 32 of 36 and you're dealing with the person that was given that notice ...then tear it down. Exercise your authority to do that. So that there becomes a precedent where people understand that if I get notice and I don't comply then they're going to take my mailbox down. But that is a different issue than people who have built houses fifteen years ago before this came into being and this wasn't even an issue. Where there was no notice. That's a different issue. But if you have the ability to do a bond ...you're right ...these people will respond. And if all you do is say, "In order to get your driveway permit and your mailbox permit, you have to post a bond that tells us that you're going to comply. And we're going to come out and check. And it's actually incumbent on you to prove it to us that you have complied. Then you get your money back." They're going to do that. The one thing I understand about contractors is they respond to the money. Peters: You're exactly right. Phelps: If you have a bonding authority... you have the answer to your problems. Peters: And I don't know for sure that we do but that's the only way I know of that we can make anybody comply to anything is if they have to money up. If they put money up...they'll either do what they ...they'll either put the money up knowing that they're going to do it anyway or if they want their money back, they're going to have to comply. I just don't know if we have that authority but that's something we're looking at. Sims: Yes sir. Stone: And our developer wasn't required to have a bond so we were left in a position of assuming that responsibility. Peters: And I don't think it would be the developer... it's going to have to be the homeowner or the builder. Whoever comes out and gets that culvert permit. It won't be the developer because the developer will put up the road bond but he won't put up for each individual house. I think it's going to have to be either the homeowner or the person building it. Phelps: And if the developer was required to have the mailbox in his plans then I am sure the developer would make sure that the builders and homeowners knew it at least. Peters: And that's been the problem is that our requirement right now is that we don't accept the road unless everything complies. Well then the developer comes back in and says, "How in the world am I going to be able to Vol Page o5O- 33 of 36 control that thing? They come out and put that mailbox and I drive through two days later and it's up and I didn't even know it." They're kind of in the same spot we're in. In that, builders are out there doing that sort of thing and even though maybe they got that letter from Road and Bridge in 2005, they still do it. I think it's follow the money ...if you can make them put money up and if they're not in compliance then I think that is the only way we'll ever... Phelps: If it's the case where somebody can build a home and someone has to come and get the permit from the County for driveway and mailbox ...is that what I'm understanding? Mallard: It's a culvert. Peters: They have a culvert application. Phelps: I mean it seem to me that if they come in...whoever it is that's coming in to do that to build it who has to get a permit from you... could you, at least, have them sign as part of the permitting process that... Peters: They do. It's in there. And it says... Phelps: What I'm saying is; does this include indemnifications? Sims: We don't know that we have that authority to make them bond... Phelps: I'm not even talking about bonds. If they sign a document that said, "I understand that if I do not build within the regulations, that I am personally, financially, liable to the person who ultimately ends up having to tear this mailbox down." So that I have somebody to sue. Sims: This gentleman's subdivision changed ...the developer walked away. He was gone. So then they were still... Phelps: Well what this sounds like is the builder who is the culprit here. Sims: Right. Mallard: Right. Phelps: And it's the builder who has to get the culvert permit. If that builder as part of that process has to sign an acknowledgement... "I understand that it is my responsibility to comply when I am building this home with these regulations including the one about mailboxes. And then if I do not comply, I am liable for that." That gives me a piece of paper that I can Vol Id Page X53 34 of 36 take to court and say, "You know what ...the County is telling me I have to tear down my mailbox and relocate it. That's going to cost me five or six thousand dollars and I'm gonna sue this guy for the difference." You could do something like that... Sims: This is the last one. Go ahead. Stone: Well the other solution would be just to increase the bond value of the developers so that they would have to maybe even require bonds from the builders to comply with what they knew. We built our brick mailbox not because we wanted to but because our coded restrictions required us to. And no where in our restrictions did it say that we had to abide by these limits. So that would be another way is whenever a neighborhood forms their restrictions don't' they file something with the County on what the restrictions are? Mallard: They file them with the clerk but we never see them. Stone: But you could have another check and balance there that when they filed them that it is stated in those restrictions that everybody's mailbox as stated. Mallard: We can't get involved in covenant restrictions. We have whatever we can do but you can set up your own. That's a private civil matter and that's not something we would enforce. We can not enforce your deed restrictions. That is up to the homeowners association. Stone: You could increase the bond value for the developer to the point where they would be inclined to do that. For instance. And the last comment I'll have is what are other counties doing? Are there other counties that are in the same position ...I'm sure outside of Houston, that have the same capability, liability, and safety issues ...what have they done? Arnold: Some of them have adopted State regulations to have a break away mailbox and that's it. We've put together a package on it. Some of them require bonds for the people to do their driveway. Some of them don't even regulate it; they say the regulations go to the State regulations. I guess they've encountered this problem so they've just run it by the State regulations. Mallard: I would just ask that Ms. Magness talk with Ms. Snelling about this and see if in this last legislature... obviously, we're coming up on another one...to go research those to see what powers we could have in this process with the home builders. I think they are the focal point. And to see Vol 107 Page a 53 f}- 35 of 36 what we can do as far permitting with our culverts and mailboxes and those items that we can deal with. Magness: We'll do that. Tape ends. The foregoing minutes of the Commissioners Court Workshop held April 15th, 2008, have been examined and Vol 101 Page ;?5 ~ 36 of 36 approved in open Court this the ;AO( day of*l', 200g, in Bryan, Brazos County, Texas. Duane Peters Commissioner, Precinct No. 2 grey Ca ley, Jr. Commissi ner, Precinct 4 Attest: aren McQueen County Clerk Lloy Wassermann Commissioner, Precinct No. 1 E 771' Kenny Mall d Commissioner, Precinct No. 3 Vol 0-?- Page BRAZOS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT MEETING ON 2008 AT WD6 a ilk W§-4 Ski Speaking Name Organization/Department a C t' S < f1 ~'~2 Vt 2 I t) 7 - as6~