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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007-07-02-2:00PM-WORKSHOP SESSIONBRAZOSCOUNTY BRYAN, TEXAS NOTICE OF MEETING AND AGENDA BRAZOS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT WORKSHOP SESSION THE COMMISSIONERS COURT OF BRAZOS COUNTY WILL MEET IN A WORKSHOP SESSION ON MONDAY 2 JULY 2007 AT 2:00 P.M. IN THE COMMISSIONERS COURTROOM OF THE BRAZOS COUNTY COURTHOUSE, 300 E. 26TH STREET, SUITE 115, BRYAN, TEXAS. 1. Call to Order 2. Discussion regarding expansion of the Brazos County Detention Center. 3. Adjourn The Brazos County Courthouse is wheelchair accessible. Handicap parking spaces are available. Any request for sign interpretive services must be made two business days before the meeting. To make arrangements, call (979) 361 -4102. Office of the County Judge • 300 East 26" St. .Suite 114 . Bryan, Texas 77803 • Fax: (979) 361 -4503 VOLPAGE1 53 I of 37 COMMISSIONERS' COURT WORKSHOP SESSION July 2, 2007 The Commissioners' Court of Brazos County, Texas met in a Workshop Session in the Commissioners' Courtroom in the Courthouse in Bryan, Brazos County, Texas, beginning at 2:00 p.m. on Monday July 2, 2007, with the following members of the Court present: Randy Sims, County Judge, Presiding; Lloyd Wassermann, Commissioner of Precinct 1; absent Duane Peters, Commissioner of Precinct 2; Kenny Mallard, Commissioner of Precinct 3; Carey Cauley, Commissioner of Precinct 4; absent Karen McQueen, County Clerk. Attached is a list of the citizens and officials in attendance. Attached is a transcript of the meeting. Vol a (P Page 154 2 of 37 BRAZOS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT Brazos County Detention Center July 2nd, 2007 Sims: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming to our meeting today. This is a workshop session Monday the 2 "d of July 2007 at 2:06 p.m. in the Commissioners Courtroom and I will call this meeting to order. There's the Sheriff. Is Wayne Dicky coming? Kirk: No, he's still out with the architects. Sims: Ok. Kirk: We're trying to split out time here. McLeod: Don't we need the architects here? Mallard: We got one. Sims: Yeah, we do have one right there. McLeod: But he doesn't have dollars. Conner: One's plenty. We don't need any more. Gallego: I'm going to spank Wayne's hands because we scheduled this around his schedule. Sims: The second item on our agenda is discussion regarding the expansion of the Brazos County Detention Center. Fred, do you have any idea what they're talking about as far a dollars and cents? We got bond council here and we were just... Patterson: I can tell you that in our last meeting we were looking for the County to give us some direction on the... Sims: Direct or indirect supervision? Vol °I w Page 1 -,�55 3 of 37 Patterson: Well, not so much that. From a dollar stand point we were looking at the contingency requirements for the project. We had talked about an owner's contingency, a construction and a design contingency and we hadn't really gotten any... Sims: Why do we want to talk about contingencies? Patterson: Well it impacts our budget. Sims: I want to know what hard dollars are. What the... Patterson: Well we've been talking about fifty million dollars with a forty million dollar construction cost. Sims: All right. Patterson: And that would give us an owner's contingency, a construction contingency, and take care of what we called in the meeting, our soft cost. Which would be fees and registration of the project... Howard: What about design contingency, do you know? Patterson: The design contingency would be included in that ten million dollars. Howard: Oh. Patterson: So there would be an owners contingency, design contingency, construction contingency as well as any additional fees; architects, engineers, cost for the bond issue, all of that would be included in that ten million dollars. And so we were trying to get some direction at the last meeting of what level contingency the owner would like to have at this time and how that impacts our construction budget. Howard: I don't think we can do all that for ten million ... with what we've got. Patterson: That's where we were. You weren't at the meeting. Howard: I know. Patterson: That's why we didn't ... so we were looking at ... and there was some discussion... Duane was there... about whether or not, if we exceed ... I don't know, are we just speaking frankly in here? Howard: Uh -huh. (positive) Vol g (o Page 15 4 of 37 Patterson: If we exceed the fifty thousand dollars, how that's going to be perceived by the community. Not fifty thousand, fifty million. How it's going to be perceived by the community and if we need to pare our plans back. And so we were looking for some direction during this programming and design stage... where we need to focus. Because we were looking initially with the program that was given to us and the POR for what we interviewed was about 155 thousand square feet. And then we were looking at if we needed to reduce the square footage, how that impacts the project. There are some things that are going to be fixed in the project. These are; mechanical rooms, hallways, thickness of walls... those things can't change. But the things that can change would be the size of day rooms, size of the cells; some of those are fixed by code also. So we're talking 140 thousand or 155 thousand that's going to be impacted by the budget. Sims: 155 thousand; does that get us three clusters or two clusters? Patterson: That would have the 576 beds plus the two 48 bed units. Did I say that right? Howard: Judge, this is Buddy Golson with Rosser. Sims: Hi, Buddy, I'm Randy Sims. Golson: How are you? Good to see you, Judge. Howard: You know the other two guys? Golson: Absolutely. How's everybody? Yall excuse me for not turning this off. I turned it off right away. Gallego: Do you want me to go get that budget for our extras or no? Sims: Yeah. Mallard: Yeah, we need that. Sims: 576 beds, is that correct? Plus what? Patterson: Plus two 48 bed units. One would be kind of a special needs and the other one was... Golson: Yeah, the other one was orientation and intake. Sims: What would be the 248 bed for special needs? What is that Sheriff? Vol q� Page 157 5 of 37 Conner: It's not 248, it's two 48's ... so 96... Sims: Two 48 beds. Mallard: 48 apiece. Sims: Ok. Thank you. Mallard: So it's 576 plus 96. Ok. Sims: You got it the same way, didn't you? Mallard: No. Sims: You understood it the same way, didn't you? Mallard: Oh yeah, I thought it was 248. There was some sort of guesstimation according to that ... a lot of times, no matter what you do, there's kind of plus or minus to it but it's based on so many dollars per bed. Because the standards are of a certain requirement so that even though your design will be different each time ... just about the cost is because of the square footage and the requirement and everything is generally concrete or steel that it runs out to be an average cost per bed. We have the luxury in this case that we won't have to add kitchen facilities and laundry facilities. Since this is an addition to the existing jail ... there may be some minor changes there but not a complete addition of those facilities. Dicky: We believe the kitchen is sufficient, as is, with some renovations. But most likely, we'll have to add some laundry. Mallard: Ok. But I mean some of it won't be complete as far as having to do that. That would kind of help us. But have there been any other jails, I guess, that are under construction to kind of know how those cost are running. Or I guess, certainly, yall are involved in that process in many other facilities and I don't know if geographical areas make that much difference or not. I just don't know. Golson: We're doing one right now in Fort Bend in Richmond and we've just gotten what they call the GMP, the Guaranteed Maximum Price, from the Construction Manager at Risk. Turner Construction Company as it were. And that project is running around $290.00 a square foot. It is a high -rise addition to the existing building. It is not a fancy building in any stretch Vol 9 � Page 159 Female: Mallard: 6 of 37 of the imagination. What we really see is some fairly substantial cost increases over the last two or three years. If you had asked me two or three years ago and I would have been appalled at $280.00 in this part of Texas but we're seeing that. We've got a project under construction right now in Lubbock, Texas with a bid made year before last ... that project bid at about $230.00. So right about now you'd probably have a project somewhere in that two, sixty, seventy, eight dollar range. I think by the time you are done here... getting the project where it can be bid and priced out is probably going to be the $280.00 plus some sort of escalation. Well, $280.00 is 43 mega. Well the $280.00 though, is probably based on ... I mean do the kitchen facilities add that much more per square foot? Golson: They did not have a kitchen there. We only added a few pieces of kitchen equipment but the kitchen itself ..the envelope was designed largely to pick up the additional beds. The laundry; we put a few piece of equipment... in other words, it's very similar to this. It's a fairly good barometer. If you talk to the Sheriff and folks down there... Sims: In Fort Bend? Golson: In Richmond, yes sir. Talk to Fred Jaybare down there and they'll tell you that they feel like they got a pretty good price. And in the final analysis, I think that's basically the ball park you're going to be looking at here. Those are two comparables right there. Dickey: Of course, one distinct difference in that project, as Buddy mentioned, is that it is a high -rise. So that would be to our benefit although we can't determine how much. Mallard: I would think that in a way the high rise is probably more expensive but, then again, land prices are really escalating seems like out of sight even here in Brazos County as well. Sims: Is that the one that's a ten story building? Golson: Yes sir. It's a nine story building. Sims: Nine story building? Golson: Yes sir. Vol 4 Page ! 59 7 of 37 Sims: Ok. Golson: And that is close to a thousand beds. I think nine - hundred and seven some odd beds. Mallard: Sheriff, how many existing beds do we have now at the minimum security facility? Kirk: That we're going to end up keeping? Mallard: Yes. I mean we're looking at the 576 and the two 48s... Kirk: 270. Dickey: 270. Mallard: We've got the 270 that will be existing beds that we will have. Ok. Dickey: With the projected number of beds, it should put our system capacity at 952, I think. Mallard: Ok. Sims: Ok. Mallard: I know we've talked several times about trying to have a little bit of room for expansion or maybe to set up utilities and do some things along that so in case we could, there could be another addition on to that. Is that something we're still looking at working toward? Dickey: I think the instructions have been for them to maximize the site and if that allows for a footprint of a fourth cluster that they would do that. So that it could be added in the future. Mallard: Ok. Sims: Would it be any cheaper to go up without adding clusters or not? Mallard: Well the clusters would have to be stacked on top ... I mean that's just the way... Sims: I know. Golson: It depends on design. But I don't think that you save substantially one to the other. Vol 01 4 Page 1&0 8 of 37 Sims: Ok. Golson: In some conditions you can do an analysis where you can prove one is cheaper that the other. One of the things that we don't like so much in high -rise jails is the that you have to move inmates up and down stairs and elevators; which is just one more management issue that the officers have to deal with in moving inmates around. Sims: Ok. Golson: Whereas just moving them horizontally down a corridor system, the chances of them trying to fight you and deal with that ... they don't have much to use against you, I suppose, as they do in doors and stairs and rails and elevator doors and that type of thing. Sims: Ok. Sheriff, did you and Wayne get together on whether you wanted indirect or direct ... have you solved that problem? Kirk: We've very close to having that answer. We've had staff at four different jails over the last two weeks and had a meeting with them on Friday. I think we're leaning towards the direct. I had to leave our meeting a little early but most everybody in the room was impressed with the direct supervisor sites that they went to. They saw some real benefits and I didn't hear any real negative comments about it. So I think we can certainly say at this point that that's where we're leaning. Sims: Direct? Kirk: Uh -huh. (positive) Sims: Ok. Buddy you need to know that before you can even start design, isn't it? Golson: Well, yes we do. Sims: Ok. Golson: It's a huge driver in our design. Sims: Ok. All right. Ok. Dickey: (inaudible) has provided the first draft of the program for the facility and we continue to work through the details on that ... but the first draft was written as though we were going to make a decision to go direct. So. Vol q � Page /b/ 9 of 37 Sims: Well that's ... I'm just... Dickey: Yeah. Sims: I'm no expert on this. You guys are the expert as far direct or indirect. I don't think this court knows ... can give any expert testimony on that. Kirk: Why? They went to Las Vegas... Sims: Well I guess they did, didn't they? Mallard: I can tell people I've been in jail in Las Vegas and they don't quite understand why I'm trying to tell them. It was quite interesting. It was a high -rise and so the elevators does present challenge in moving and going. But they seemed like they had a pretty good handle on it with the way they had the control room set up. But it was different. There is no buttons around there to push to get on one ... you have to ask someone in that control to operate all that. But I can see where it would have some additional personnel to try to keep up with all of that movement where it wouldn't be if you were all on one level, basically. Kirk: Our greatest concern was our existing staff and we felt like if this is going to be our future then they need to part of the decision. Mallard: Uh -huh. (positive) Kirk: Because it is a complete turn around to the type of management style and incarceration style. And right now I think it's pretty well accepted from everyone that that was probably a good move towards... Mallard: Yeah. Sims: Ok. Pat, what you gave us up here was what ... 37 million and a 43 million, is that correct? Howard: If it's a 40 million bond issue ... or that probably should be construction, then extras including the architect would be $43,106,000.00. That does not include the material testing and the survey and the money for the bonds. And then if you have the contingencies. You would have to fit all of that in. Peterson: Without the furnishing. Howard: Yeah, it doesn't include furnishings either. Vol I � Page l & Z 10 of 37 Peterson: Or any fixtures that you would need, anything that's not built into the facility. Speaker: Additional cost of the Bond Issue. Howard: It's 5% of the total bond. Martin: But that's kind of the rule of thumb for underwriting bond council, etc. etc ... that's just a number (inaudible). Probably not that much (inaudible) Conner: So if it was a 50 million dollar bond, it's 5% of 50 million? Martin: Right. Howard: So you really have to play with the dollars close there. Sims: Right. Mallard: Katy, you have your calculator with you? Conner: Maybe, if it's not... Mallard: Well is it 230? Is that right? No. The square footage? Conner: That was 43 million. You talking about the 155,000 square feet? Sims: 155,000 square feet. Conner: At $280.00 a square foot is about $43,400,000.00. I got that calculator. Patterson: $43,400,000.00. That's at our current square footage as advertised in our POR. So we're still working on the program to reduce or exceed... Mallard: And we kind of ran the additional numbers that needs to be added to that ... we come up with $50,000,000.00? Howard: Maybe. But I'd request 5 %. Sims: How much? Conner: $4,500,000.00. 5% of 50 million. That doesn't sound right though. That can't be right. Patterson: 5 times 5 is 25. Vol 0/ � Page 163 11 of 37 Sims: Well that gives us 45 million. Howard: The materials estimate is $12,000.00. Mallard: 10% is $4,300,000.00 so half of that. Patterson: We're looking at 5% of the total bond issue. So if it's a 50 million dollar bond issue, the budget for the bond cost is $200..... Mallard: Sounds about right. Conner: How about '' /z of a percent. Mallard: Try that. Howard: That wouldn't leave us any money for contingency. Because if you have the 43 and the 2.5, it's what... Patterson: Now this is based on 40 million for construction not 43... Conner: I think it's '/z a percent bond council. Howard: If construction is $43,400,000.00 then we could not have 50 million... Conner: So it's $250,000.00 not $2,500,000.00. Patterson: Decimal was in the wrong place. Conner: Mr. Martin and I were talking and figured out it's probably not 5% for bond council and underwriter's, it's about '/2 a percent. It's about $250,000.00. Because I know that we got the estimate from PFS. Martin: You've got rating costs and all that stuff, but that... Conner: I know, but... Sims: So it's .5 percent? Martin: Yeah, .5 percent. Sims: Ok. For the total bond? Conner: Yes. Vol �� 165 Page 12 of 37 Sims: Which equals? Conner: $250,000.00. Sims: Thank you. Mallard: Is there any way we can Sims: Paul, we were all going into bond council... Martin: Listen, if you want me to set that fee right now... Sims: You'll have a contract in hand, huh? Mallard: So when we add up all the pieces to it, do we have kind of a gross guesstimate? Conner: I'm sorry? Mallard: If we add up all the little costs and if we're saying the bond ... the construction amount is $43,400,000.00? Is that right? And then we add up all the other ancillary items? (inaudible) Howard: Patterson: Howard: Patterson: Kirk Howard: Kirk: Howard: Patterson: Vol The architect fee would go up. Uh -huh. (positive) By the time you take your phone consultant, your phone system, the IT, materials testing up here. Architects and engineers that's included... that's included in structural, civil, and reimbursables; that's about $4,000,000.00 to add to the $43,400,000.00. Without contingencies. Without a contingency. I've heard contingency in the furnishings as well. Yes. So that's on top as well. It sounds like 50 would cover it, right? If that's correct? 1� Page t65 13 of 37 Howard: You think it would? Patterson: That's what we were talking the other day ... would the 10 million dollars be enough. We were going to have your group run through the number; furniture and so forth and some of those. (inaudible), with the officers. Conner: (inaudible) extra in there in case we have some ... not money, things we can spend it on. Howard: But this going to be (inaudible) Conner: But not if you don't put it in the documents. Sorry. Patterson: Yeah, and I kinda took that into account. (inaudible) Mallard: So, somewhat less than 50 million dollars? Sims: It's $47,950.000... talking about additional add on. Mallard: Well it's $47,400,000.00. So... Sims: Ok. No, it's $47,700,000.00 ... what I got. Mallard: Ok. Well, see... Sims: And then $250,000.00 for bond council. Patterson: Right. That'd be included... Mallard: I thought all that was... that's what I'm saying; I'm looking for... Sims: A number. Mallard: A number. A gross number that includes all those items. Sims: Which is? Conner: $50,000,000.00. Peters: You can probably figure 10% contingency, especially when you're starting out, at least. Sims: Well she's figuring $2,500,000.00 or $3,000,000.00, right at $3,000,000.00 contingency if going to $50,000,000.00. Vol q4 Page /&Q 14 of 37 Mallard: That's $48,000,000.00 right there is only 2. Sims: Yeah, $48,000,000.00. Two million then contingency. Conner: That's less than 5% on a huge project like that. Mallard: I'm sorry? Conner: That's less than 5 %. Mallard: Of what? Conner: Assuming contingency of 48 million. Sims: Less than 5% on 48. Conner: Less than 5% contingency. But if he writes it lose enough. Yes, I've got those numbers in there. If he writes it, not loosely, but includes some other things then we can use that money on other projects. Mallard: Well as time goes on, we will get a better number on that? Patterson: The closer we get to our September date, yes sir; we'll have a better idea on the total square footage of the project... Mallard: Ok. Patterson: ...and we'll have more accurate information from the construction manager on the costs. But what we had talked about in our last meeting was... Sims: That's scares me. 'Cause I remember what we did the last time. Patterson: ...starting out big and shrinking down. Not starting out at the sum maybe what we would like to think it is and then go up. Mallard: Right. Patterson: So if it needed to be ... if yall decided it was $50,000,000.00, then all we've got to play with is square footage at that point. Because construction quality is pretty much fixed by existing conditions and the jail standards. The dollars per square foot are fixed by the construction industry. All Buddy has got to play with is square footage at that point. And so it would be up to Wayne and Buddy to negotiate on room sizes or Vol ON Page d !?7 15 of 37 programs within the facility that may need to switch to keep the square footage down. To get down to 40 million dollars at our current square footage, we're looking at reducing about 13,000 feet out of the facility. 142,800 square feet. So, that other 3 million dollars needs to be included, then I'd say 55 million would give us the current program facility, would give us the more contingency that I think Katy's asking about. Sims: Katy's not asking anything about... Patterson: Well I heard her concern about the small size of the contingency at this... Conner: No, I'm just telling you the percent. Sims: No, she's just giving us numbers. Conner: I'm just telling numbers. Patterson: Ok. Conner: I have no opinion. No opinion. Patterson: Ok. Well then (inaudible). Mallard: There was also some talk of some other ancillary parts adding to that. I know for a while there was talk about perhaps having a magistrates office out there ... is that something we need to look at or is that something that the video arraignments would be able to take care of that. Sims: I don't know why the video arraignments ... that's where we have headed to and that's what's working now. Mallard: I know. That's why I was wondering. I mean where does it make sense to say, "Let's just go to the video." Can we do that? Is that something that fits all contingencies or do we actually need a space for, room for arraignment? Conner: I don't think it was just arraignment, I think it was the magistrate doing this. Non contested misdemeanors. Peters: The magistrate like, Dana Zachary's position. Dana Zachary's magistrate, not the arraignment. Mallard: Right. Vol 61 � Page leg 16 of 37 Peters: And I guess right now, yall shift everybody over to her courtroom and back and forth or do you... Dicky: No, we use video. Peters: You do use... Dicky: Actually Judge Zachary doesn't do arraignments; often the J.P.'s do arraignments... Peters: No, I wasn't talking about arraignments, I was talking about her cases. Not, not... Dickey: They move to the courtroom for cases. We do not use the video in any of the county courts or district courts. Mallard: So, is that a legal option? I mean can it be done? Dicky: I do not know. I think in most cases, if you're talking about a trial by jury type situation, they're going to be in the courtroom. Mallard: Right. Sims: Yeah. But the magistrate doesn't do that. Dicky: Right. If the magistrate was going to take pleas, I don't see any reason why they couldn't do that by video ... if there's a plea. Mallard: And that's what I'm saying. So really, we may not need to put that space at the jail facility. In doing what they're doing, obviously, the magistrate can only hear uncontested... Kirk: Right. The current program, the first draft of the program, does have a small room in it for either very small hearings or we could use it for video. Mallard: And are we going to try to do it so in each spot, have videos for visitation and possibly arraignment? Dicky: At this point, we're going under the assumption that we're going to do video visitation and that we will not move inmates. That the public will come to some location at the site and visit with the person incarcerated by video that is in the cell. To my knowledge, right now, that doesn't interface with the court video system. They probably could, but most of th jails haven't gone there yet. The court system, obviously, has to be Vol Page /&O/ 17 of 37 recorded on both ends to create a record of hearing. Some video visitations are ... they're moving towards that. But right now those are two distinctly different types of programs with different video equipment. Mallard: Seems like that it would really only make sense if we're going to do the video to have that combined if it can be. I don't know, maybe our architects have seen ... have yall witnessed that where the can do video arraignments and video visitation at the same location? I mean, basically, the inmates now inside their pod can go and sit in a cubicle type area where this a video monitor and then they can converse with their visitors. And I don't know on that side ... but, I mean, is there a reason why they couldn't do that on a... Golson: That's being done. Mallard: Is it? Ok. Using the same piece of equipment? Golson: The technology is available, yes, to do that. And that's being done at one particular facility in Oregon they're doing that. Mallard: It seems like even in a jail if that would eliminate a lot of movement within the jail and that may save a lot of hours of the jailers having to move people around. I know in some of the jail, since they have the hallways; the inmates are able to move somewhat on their own with certain restrictions. So I'm just trying to figure out some ways to deal with that and it may save us some cost, both in labor and in actual square footage. If we're not having to move those folks around and they can make contact anywhere in the world for that matter as far as the judges are concerned. But, in general, they would be wherever their offices were, they could do it. I know on the J.P.s, we're trying to get that video arraignment where they can operate out of their office to the jail that they have now. Sims: And they do that now. Mallard: Yeah. They have that capability ... I don't know if they are utilizing it from their offices or not. Sims: They are utilizing it. Dicky: My understanding is some of them are using... Sims: You know when I was upstairs and the jail ... was that not Tommy Munoz that was arraigning some? Vol q� - Page /70 19 of 37 facility are going to be in what we call orientation or classification for the first 48 hours and they are going to see the judge when they are in that unit by video. But it is conceivable that if we had video visitation for the public, that they could use the same equipment to do video to the courts. I just haven't seen it done before. Mallard: Yeah. I would assume that all of the recording equipment would be wherever the magistrate or the judges were and they would be recording from that end and then where ever the visitation... and they had the visitors of the inmates, there wouldn't be any recording link on that side. I would assume that that would facilitate that situation. I certainly don't present myself as a computer expert or video but... Dickey: I don't think we'll see any significant saving in square footage, necessarily... Mallard: Right. Dickey: ...but when you talk about operations and having to move people less frequently, it is a benefit. Mallard: Well I mean for safety issues as well as not having to move a lot of people around. I saw that as a real benefit where they actually had so many thing there in the cell block where it eliminated that movement of the inmates. Dickey: Yes sir. Kirk: Conceptually, from the start that is what our goal has been. Mallard: Yeah. Kirk: To reduce the amount of movement of an inmate in a facility and that , therein, is the efficiency of long term operations of the jail ... is to be able to come back on the staff, the ancillary staff, to move inmates. And I think we're all in accord on that idea; just finding the... Sims: The technology is probably there somewhere. Is that not true? Ok. Kirk: It doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to me. Sims: Ok. Mallard: I mean if they can do the two separately, I just don't see why they couldn't combine it with the same equipment there at the jail. So we may Vol Page 17P, 20 of 37 not need ... I guess what it all boils down to is do we need a magistrate's office there? Probably not. Kirk: Well, I guess we could say at the same time, we probably might still need that room. It doesn't need to be a large room but there are other opportunities, possibly, to use something like that rather than move them all the way out here. We could actually bring the judge out there. I wouldn't scrub that from the project. Mallard: No, I was just curious if that would work. Ok. So Paul, I was wondering as far as the numbers go, can you help us with what our rates would be or give us a guesstimate as to what they would be? Conner: It depends on how long you want it to go out. Thirty years, 25 or 20. Thirty years would add 2.2 cents to the debt service tax rate... Sims: 2. what? Conner: 2. Sims: All right. Conner: In fiscal year '09. So not this year. And then it would add .004, so .04 cents in the next year. And then it wouldn't increase it ... or values would make up for it, so it would... Sims: Ok. So 2.2 for 30 years starting in `09, is that correct? Conner: Yes. Sims: Ok. Peters: And that was a 50 million, is that...? Conner: And then it would start dropping. Yes over the (inaudible). Sims: 50 million. Mallard: And then it would start what... Conner: The INS rate would start dropping back off. That's the most (inaudible) debt service tax rate. Mallard: Oh ok. Vol Page 17 21 of 37 Sims: What's 25 years? Conner: Same thing. Sims: Same thing? Conner: Yeah, it's just a little bit ... it's 1.4 in the second year instead of .04. Sims: 22? 2.2? Conner: No the 2.2 is still there in the first year. The second year is where it starts changing. Sims: Ok. 25 years would be 2.2? Conner: Yes. Sims: Same? Conner: Yes. Mallard: So shorter is better? Sims: So what are we saying? Conner: Yes, shorter is better for total cost. Yes. Exactly. If we did 20 years instead of 30 years, we'd have to go up more in the 20/10. We'd have to go up 1.4 cents. Mallard: Twenty cents? Kirk: Gentleman, we need to keep in mind what our jail projects were. I don't think they were beyond 20 years. So the life of the project is 20 years, probably. As far as our projections for inmate populations. Mallard: Do you think that the jail would not be habitable after 20 years? Kirk: No, it would be habitable, but we will reach our maximum again... Mallard: Oh right. Kirk: ...I think it's 20 years wasn't it? Dickey: The number that Commissioner Peters and I worked out using population incarceration rates that we know today is we would need to build 676 Vol ct 6 Page 17 22 of 37 bed ... and this project is currently is 672. And that gets us out to ... was it 2028 that we calculated? Peters: Yeah. Sims: So it would be 20 years. Dickey: Twenty years. Sims: What about alternative... ankle bracelets and this type of thing that we're hopefully going to? Dickey: All of those projects are moving along. Pre -trail sentencing... Sims: I mean... Dickey: ...pre -trial release and electronic monitoring. Those are both less than six months old and we don't know what they're going to do yet. Sims: Ok. Mallard: And, of course, the Legislature is continuing to push toward those process, I guess they're called `Jail Diversion'. Dickey: Right. Mallard: I know that was a big item that everybody is talking about. Trying not to have to build more prisons on their side. Does that directly affect us that much as far as the time they spend in the Texas Prison System ... I don't know if that affects us because we end up with usually it's always based on a percentage of our population. We know we're going to have folks that are incarcerated for X amount of time. Kirk: I think where it affects us ... certainly alternative sentencing is the way the Legislature has chosen to go rather than build beds. Mallard: That changes every two years. Kirk: It's recognizing there that the pendulum is now swinging back and there's going to be a time ... before the State decides prisons are necessary that the Counties are going to back up again. It's a very difficult situation. I think what we have to worry about in the future is the type of inmate we're going to have. I think we're going to see a greater number of felons in our jails and certainly the special needs. Those are both areas that I think we're going to see an increase in prisoners. Vol q � Page f T5 23 of 37 Sims: The jail diversion will last just long enough for somebody that's out ... that has been diverted from jail to kill somebody. And then the citizens will clamor to put everybody under the jail. Kirk: Unfortunately, the jails are going to take a hit well before the State fills their beds. Peters: Wayne and I talked a little bit about the possibility of the night and weekenders... the guys that are out on the street in the public during the day and then they come in at night or spend their time on the weekend; I know that when you have to house them in the jail then you've got to go through all the process, the booking, the searches, and all that to get them back into the regular population. And then in the morning you turn them back out and the next day you may be putting them back in and all that. And we talked some about whether it made sense to maybe build a lower security unit that they would be treated differently. I mean they would be a dorm type situation or whatever... that would be lower cost per square foot than this higher security jail. And then we talked a little bit about whether then those minimum security guys that are there all the time but they are the trustee types. The kind that are really probably not going to cause you any problems... they're not the maximum security guys and whether in addition to a portion of the jail that would be at a lower cost per square foot ... it might house the nights and weekender folks. Then maybe some portion of it that still might save 30% of the costs. That would be more of a minimum type security but then you still have this portion that's more of the maximum kind. I wondered in my own mind whether than going to direct supervision... there are going to be some of those guys that you can't deal with any other way. I mean you can deal with them any other way than indirect. They are going to be problems and you're going to have to lock them up. But if we could build part of that jail at a less cost per square foot for the indirect type people and not have to go to that $280.00 a square foot but maybe something less because you don't have that maximum... Dickey: That average already takes that in account. The $280.00 already takes into account that there will be three distinct construction levels. The lowest of which will be those folks that are incarcerated full time but at the lowest security level. And those will be in dormitories, which is the cheapest type of construction that is included in the project. But then there will also be some medium level construction and maximum. And that's specific to this project in that it's going to include all three types. What you and I discussed in addition to that is the possibility of having a low -risk center or work release center that really would be a completely different scope from this project. The jail commission would allow the Vol Cl l Page l 7CP 24 of 37 construction of a building to house work release people in a building that is, basically, commercial grade materials. Sims: Could I ask a question; why do we even need a work release building? I mean these people are in the community working. Why is we have to bring them back in ... like Duane said, make sure they don't bring any weapons in and all of this good stuff. Why do we even need to do that? Why can't we just use a jail diversion program, put the ankle bracelets on them as opposed to another building? Peters: And that's probably a judge's, I guess, discretion. I mean a judge is going to say ... I mean I don't know that but I would assume the judge is going to say, `You can let this one out or not... you're going to keep him in jail.' Sims: Well I understand that. But if they say you gotta keep them in jail, then you put them in jail. But if they are out working in the community ... I mean he has already put them back out with the general public... Mallard: Well, but there is work release and maybe they revoke their probation and he doesn't want to put them in jail but he's trying to teach them a lesson. I mean there's so many reasons. Kirk: I think that's right. I think what we're going to see is there are progressive sanctions levels there and home monitoring might be the start. But then there are those that probably need to be in a lockdown overnight. And then those that can't even work in that, of course, might be the next sanction. It is solely up to the magistrates and the judges to make that decision. I know I've had a conversation with the DA about this and he's wanting to help us with educating the community about the bond issue and the importance of it. Because he says that that work release component... which right now is if we get over crowded, we're sending folks home, so that we're not over our capacity in some cases. And he's very concerned about that. And so he's on board with us. He's going to help us educate the community about the need for incarceration. Sims: If I was a bad guy, I'm not going to act up in that jail. I'm going to wait until you send me to work the next morning. I mean does that make sense to yall? Kirk: Well, if you're that bad of a guy, you're not even considered for work release. Sims: I understand, I understand that. And I may become that before this bond issue is over with. Vol _ q Page 0-7 Kirk: Sims: Mallard: Peters: Sims: Peters: Kirk: Sims: Peters: 25 of 37 I'll make a note of that. It just seems like to me that if they are out in the general public all day long and we still have to lock them up at night. But they have structure at work and when they're at home they don't have any structure and then they stray. They're not like you, Judge. Maybe it's some guy that goes out and drinks and then drives, you know. If he's sitting in jail, he's not doing that. Well yeah, but you can put something on his car to prevent that so it don't even start when he blows it. He may wanna borrow yours, though. Well, you know, we're starting the project and we'll be able to report to you how successful it is. That's the only thing I'm thinking about ... now we're talking about more construction with the minimum side. Well no, I think this includes all that. I was just thinking whether some of it could be kind of what... Dickey: Well let me say that this project as it's currently programmed wouldn't include that. It wouldn't include that commercial grade construction. This is a jail that we're building. Sims: Right. Right. Right. That's all we're talking about. Dickey: Yes sir. Sims: Ok. Good. Dickey: We're building a jail. And the only suggestion... the conversation that we had was either the discussion of a work release center was two possibilities ... one, we need beds before this jail is complete, it would give us some relief. Or, option two; if we run out of beds before we pay the bond off, 18 yeas from now ... it may be an option to give us some relief. Sims: What would be ... you know we're looking for a number here ... at least that' where we started was looking for a number. And it looks like to me that what I see is we have 48 million with that number square footage Vol Page ) -7 26 of 37 and if we have 4 million contingency in that which would take it to 52 for the bond issue ... would that work? Kirk: I think Buddy's pen has been floating around his pad here. Sims: I was waiting on Buddy to jump and give it to me. Kirk: He's got an answer for you. Sims: All right. Golson: Judge, here are some of my general assumptions... Sims: Ok. Golson: ...I don't know if the dust is going to settle on this program but I'm leaving the square footage at 150 thousand and I'm putting the construction cost $300.00; thinking Fort Bend is $280.00, we've got some escalation and we may as well... Sims: Build them in. Golson: ...build that in. So I started with 45 million for the construction amount and I left the ... I don't know if you've seen this document that I'm looking at, it was handed to me as I walked in the door ... but the phone consultant I left at the $70, 225.00. The phone system at $35,000.00, the IT system at $55,000.00 and the material testing at $50,000.00. We've quoted a 6.9% fee in our contract which would be around $3,100,000.00. The civil engineer, I left at $80,000.00. The reimbursables at $80,000.00. For a total of 48 ... and I'm going to kind of round this off—call it $48,417,000.00. Then I said, "Let's do a 10% contingency." Which would sort of break down at this point as a 5% contingency for the project and a 5% contingency during construction for unforeseen conditions. So, that's a 10% for $4,800,000.00. I put fixtures, furnishings and equipment in at $600,000.00, it was about $800,000.00 at Fort Bend. This is a little bit smaller facility. So that got us to $53,800,000.00. I put the bond in at a half of a percent. Somebody check my math but I put $275,000.00. That gets us at about $54,200,000.00. I've probably not covered some things like survey and some other contingencies that you probably ought to have in there. I think you round it off at $55,000,000.00. That is a little bit over 20% soft cost above the hard construction cost which is kind of my of thinking... I've seen it run between 20 and 25 on projects all the time. Sims: That's better than the 60 million I heard here not long ago. Vol q� Page 1-71' 27 of 37 Golson: Well, that's just my thinking at this point. Sims: I understand. Golson: As a foot on t he ground, you can challenge those numbers. I don't think they're low if we do the program that we've got. Here's the first draft of the program and it's pushing 150,000 square feet. I think that by the time we're done it's going to be that and maybe a little bit more. That's the reason I suggested maybe a little bit more contingency. The only way that we would cut that back, I would think, would be to start to cut some beds out. I mean I don't think you can nickel and dime... Sims: 150,000 square feet equals 55 million, then, huh? Golson: Yes sir. Sims: That's with no change orders, Sheriff. I'm not hammering on you ... I'm guilty of that too. Kirk: I don't think we have that bad of a history on change. Sims: Now I didn't point it directly at you. I said I'm guilty of that too. Kirk: Ok. Golson: My advice to you would be to build ... and I think this does ... as far as your bond issue is concerned, build some fairly heavy contingency that give you the best flexibility of dealing with anything that crops up without having to go back to the well. Sims: Ok. Ok. Well that's what we wanted was your expertise on it. Ok. Go ahead. Peters: One other thing that I would like to ... while yall are out there looking and all ... what I don't want to do is ... and I think we've talked about some before is, you've maximized that area that's out there so that some future court, hopefully, no sooner than 20 years from now ... may have to add some more jail space. And I don't want to put it on some other future court to have to go somewhere else down the road or somewhere else and build another jail in another area. So while yall are out there looking, I want to make sure that you're thinking, "Ok, well if this is what we're going to build... what have we got left over so that some future court that may have to deal with another expansion." That there is still room out there and they don't have to go somewhere else to buy property. I'd just Vol C1 � Page 1 80 28 of 37 like to throw that into the mix of the thinking. I don't wanna saddle somebody else up with a huge problem. Mallard: The problem for us, as we see it, is that you can build so much because whatever you build you're having to burden the tax payers for it. And in a way, one of my first thoughts were why not go ahead and maximize the space that we have ... the land area we have... and build a jail of a size that would fit that footprint. And so that it would last as long as the life of that jail site would be. And then when it was time to build another one... couldn't build it there because that site would be worn out and we'd need to move somewhere else. But the problem is, we'll be burdening so much today ... of the citizens today, with this cost that you just can't do that. And we thought of some ideas on how to try to fill the jail with other inmates or take some of the inmates that are ready to go to the State prison to stay here and the State would reimburse us. But there's no guarantee. There's nothing that we can do that gives us any guarantees to protect the citizens of Brazos County of having to pay that extra cost. So it just falls back on you build what you can for the burden that you can afford today and knowing that some time in the future ... and you never know, we may find a better way to do it and maybe we'll be able to do away with jails in twenty years. I mean that's the perfect side and then the other side is you may have to build even more. It's just so many unknowns and you just try to do as much as you can and try to limit the burden on the citizens. And this seems like a pretty good compromise as far as the number of bed we've put here. We feel like we've projected that out for 20 years and try to do the best we can so that future courts will be able to look at it and maybe they'll be able to make a good decision as well. Martin: What is the construction period? About how long will you take? Patterson: Probably 24 months. Sims: Any more questions? Mallard: From those numbers can ... I hate to ask you to do that in your head `cause I know I certainly can't do that—but if you could maybe run a calculator on it and give us some numbers. Conner: When we were at 40 million the dept service tax rate was going to have to go out to about 1.9 cents in '08. When we went to 50, it came to 2.2 cents. So I'm assuming based on everything else staying the same, it'll be about 2.35. Vol � � Page I f l 29 of 37 Mallard: Ok. Conner: If we went to 55 million. Ah, that's just in '08 and that's assuming a ten year increase assessed value this year. Ten percent, and then five percent after that. We average about 7.5. You see what I'm saying? Mallard: Not really but... Conner: That's ok. Mallard: That's why you're doing what you're doing. Conner: It could be up or down from there. But we've assumed that property values are going to continue to increase, we will continue to grow. Mallard: Ok. Conner: Not increase, necessarily on your property, increase in total because of new property and... Mallard: We're gonna make the pie a little bit bigger. Conner: Yeah. We're going to assume growth. Mallard: Right. Conner: So it's assuming a 10% growth in '07, '08 and 5% after that for about five years. And then it's going to be nothing. No growth. Conservative. Mallard: The conservative side. Conner: That's right. Mallard: Well as with growth, grows our jail population, so... Conner: Right. And the difference between the 20, 25, and 30 years is about 8 million dollars in interest. Eight million between 20 and 25 and eight million between 25 and 30. So, it doesn't appear that it's going to affect the tax rate that much. It's going to effect the tax rate the same; 20, 25, or 30. So it appears that 20 would be the best value for us. Sims: Yes. Conner: At this time. Vol � Page ga 30 of 37 Mallard: Yeah. I'm glad that it sort of worked out that way because, obviously, the shortest run that you can go seems to be... Conner: Well apparently the difference between a 30 year bond and a 20 year is not the much right now. Of course, the market changes but still, we can always look at refinancing later on is we find that ... just like we did with the '06 CO's. We refinanced those. Martin: Right. And we ran those numbers at 4.75 which is probably about right today. Sims: 4.75 %? Martin: Yes. Interest rates are going up though. Sims: Ok. Paul what kind of time frame are we working? Do you have a calendar for us yet? Martin: Yes sir. September 4`h, I think is the date on which we would call the election. I'll have to make a submission to the Justice Department... August, I think 23d, is the date. But I don't need the number for the Justice Department. By submission I can say `Up to 60 million', or something. They don't care what the number is ... all they care about is the voting. Sims: Ok. Martin: But the September 4`h, I'll need it because that's the day when we got caught up, we have to start publishing notice and you have all the requirements you need us to get a number for McLeod: How much time do you need to get ready for September the 4`h because we have to publish three days ahead of time. We've got to post a notice. Sims: We've got to post a notice on the 2 "a, is that what I'm hearing? Gallego: The 1s` Sims: The 15`9 Yeah l s` McLeod: The 15`. So how much time do you need before that to get an order done? Martin: Well I can get an order done... 1 Vol Page 0 McLeod: Martin: McLeod: Martin: Howard: Martin: Howard: Martin: McLeod: Howard: Sims: McLeod: Sims: McLeod: Conner: Mallard: 31 of 37 Like that? Yeah. Ok. If I have the voting information. So you're saying September 159 Yeah, I think September ls`. Notice for the public meeting, 72 hours ahead. Seventy -two hours before September the ls`9 No before... September the (inaudible). Oh, ok. Is there any restrictions on what days fall in there? Do what? Is there any restrictions on what days fall in that time frame? Well, it's Labor Day. The 2 "d. No it's... Conner: No, it's the 3`d. Labor Day is on Monday isn't it? Gallego: It's always on Monday. Martin: The I't is Saturday. Sims: The Is` is Saturday. Ok. Well then we should be ok. Martin: (inaudible) Mallard: I'm going to be in Uvalde. Vol q � Page 10 32 of 37 Sims: Where you going to be? Peters: I don't know. Sims: I think I'm going to be out of town too. Mallard: In September...? McLeod: September the 4th. The last day we can call it is the 5th according to that schedule... and the 4th is Tuesday. Sims: Right. Mallard: Is it the I st? Labor Day is always the first Monday. McLeod: It's the first Monday. Mallard: Well is the... Conner: It's the 3`d Sims: 5th of September. Mallard: 5th of September, you're right. Ah, 3`d, just like they said. Martin: September the 3`d is Labor Day. (overtalking) Sims: Paul, what kind of bond rating are we going to have? I see what we got here. Martin: Well I think ... we have a double A. I don't think that a project like this will hurt your rating. I mean certainly you have to raise taxes. That's not raising the taxes a big number or anything like that. Sims: Ok. Martin: I can't see why it would hurt the rate any. Sims: Ok. Pay a little additional premium and get a triple A? Martin: Yeah. Sims: Ok. Yes sir, Fred. Vol R (e Page 8S 33 of 37 Patterson: Just need to clarify ... on the &h we're turning in (inaudible). But yall need the exact dollar figure for the bond issue... when do we need that number? Martin: Well that's when we need the number. Patterson: On the 4`h? Martin: Yeah. McLeod: But how long ... ok, we're going to call it on that day. So you'll need the number before then? Martin: You can post it over to that number. McLeod: Right.Ok. Patterson: By September 151, we posted this (inaudible) for election. September 4`h, which is actually a Thursday... Mallard: We'd actually like it the day before. Conner: It's a Tuesday. Patterson: I understand. (overtalking) Mallard: That's sort of like bids, you know, you'd like to have them in... Patterson: September P is Labor Day so... Mallard: Yeah. So we'll probably need it that Friday before. Martin: If we could get it that sure would help us. Mallard: Yeah. Howard: Which is on a Thursday. Patterson: August 31 sc Howard; That's when we'd like to have it ... the 309 Vol 1 �P Page I $1l 34 of 37 Mallard: Is that the Friday before? Patterson: Yeah. Mallard: And we'll take it before that too if it's available. Sims: Questions? Questions? Female: (inaudible) McLeod: What do you need? Do you need the election precincts and that's it? Martin: Election officers. McLeod: You need the election judges at that time as well? Martin: Right. McQueen: They tend to change. McLeod: They tend to change every two weeks. Martin: Yeah, ok. McLeod: So it's ok? As long as you have the ones that we have at that time? Martin: Right. McLeod: That we appoint in July? Martin: I'm sorry? McLeod: That we appoint this month ... we'll start on them. Martin: Ok. McLeod: Ok. Martin: Yeah, that's good. McLeod: Ok. Sims: Questions? Questions? Vol 9 � Page I S I 35 of 37 Martin: Now the direct and indirect; does that mean that County employees will run the jail as opposed to a... Conner: No. Sims: No. Peters: County employees will... Conner: It's how they run it. (overtalking) Male: Both. Either direct or indirect. Mallard: It's two different styles. Martin: Ok. There's no contemplation of doing private... Conner: Contract. No. Martin: Ok. Mallard: We'll have to take you to jail with us when we go so you can see. Martin: It's better for me to ask you now because I'd have to (inaudible). Sims: Fred, you got anything else? Patterson: No sir. Sims: No? Howard: Judge, the jail committee is to meet tomorrow at 1:30 over at (inaudible). Sims: Ok. Buddy, any questions? Golson: No sir. Thank you. Sims: Thank you for the numbers. Appreciate it. Ok. What else? Anything else? No Carlos, we can't launch that into your budget yet. McLeod: Can we email these receipts Precincts and Judges? Male: Yeah. Vol Page 36 of 37 Sims: Now, Sheriff, what we got to do is sell this thing. Kirk: Oh, we're working on that. Sims: Good. Kirk: Got a few dates already picked out. Sims: I want Wayne to go with me, I don't want you to go ... they're liable to throw rocks at you. I want Wayne to go with me when we make presentation to the Lion's Club, the Kiwanis' Club, you name it. Kirk: We've got Rotary and a Republican Club and... Mallard: At the Intergovernmental Committee. Kirk: Intergovernmental Committee (inaudible). Sims: If you will call me, I will be happy to go with you. Kirk: Ok. Sims: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming... Vol q� Page 192 37 of 37 The foregoing minutes of the Commissioners Court Workshop held July 2nd, 2007, have been examined and approved in open Court this the 1,LI day of 20�, in Bryan, Brazos County, Texas. Randy S' s Count Judge Ql l G -- " Duane Peters Commissioner, Precinct No. 2 6b-Seh t Carey Cauley, Jr. Commissioner, Precinct 4 Attest: K ren McQueen County Clerk Vol 9� Page 190 Lloyd assermann Commissioner, Precinct No. 1 Kenny Mal a d Commission , Precinct No. 3 r BRAZOS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT MEETING ON _ 2007 AT / l,'� ik Name Organization /Dep ment F9 ,� #�u�y �ovsbnJ %�� I rn- ►�- �'n��i rn�� It VOL 94?-PAGE /0// Pi